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Thomas Weidenfeller wrote:
> e) Select at least two you like best and use them. Two, or more, so you don't get dependent on a certain IDE.

I wish my managers at various jobs understood this. In enterprise development
it is not uncommon for the Powers That Be to mandate an IDE for all developers
in the name of "consistency" (hark to Ralph Waldo Emerson's warning about "a
foolish consistency") and the ability to "share knowledge". But they ignore
the dangers of IDE dependencies.

For example, Eclipse is sometimes too smart - I've seen it resolve classpath
issues silently, which messed up a delivery that was built without Eclipse's
help. IDEs often include their own libraries, sometimes, like Netbeans's
"AbsoluteLayout" or WebSphere Application Developer's SWT GUI library, that
can be a problem where wider standards are desirable.

I believe that emacs (or vi) in conjunction with an Ant-driven build is the
"best" way to guarantee a clean delivery, though not necessarily the most
productive for development and debugging.

Besides these issues, if you're a working programmer you need to be facile
enough to adopt whatever mandatory IDE your employer (foolishly?) demands.

- Lew

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 01:35:20 +0100, Lew <> wrote:

> Thomas Weidenfeller wrote:
>> e) Select at least two you like best and use them. Two, or more, so you
>> don't get dependent on a certain IDE.
>
> I wish my managers at various jobs understood this. In enterprise
> development it is not uncommon for the Powers That Be to mandate an IDE
> for all developers in the name of "consistency" (hark to Ralph Waldo
> Emerson's warning about "a foolish consistency") and the ability to
> "share knowledge". But they ignore the dangers of IDE dependencies.

Agreed. In our team we use a mix of IDEA and Eclipse. IDE configuration
files are banned from Subversion and builds are decoupled from particular
IDEs by using Ant.

This post (http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t83124.html) from the
other day illustrates your point. The poster can't find enough Java
developers in London who have NetBeans experience and won't consider
otherwise highly skilled developers who happen to use a different tool.
Even ignoring the argument against standardising on one IDE, it would not
take long for a competent developer to learn NetBeans.

> I believe that emacs (or vi) in conjunction with an Ant-driven build is
> the "best" way to guarantee a clean delivery, though not necessarily the
> most productive for development and debugging.

We use Continuum (on a machine that has only Ant installed) to make sure
our projects build without any unwelcome tool dependencies.

Dan.

--
Daniel Dyer
http://www.uncommons.org

Thomas Weidenfeller wrote:
> BillJosephson wrote:
> > What's the matissa thing?
>
> A very nice GUI editor (aka "form" designer) for particular tasks, which
> is part of NetBeans.
>
> May I provide some general suggestions? Instead of listening to the
> fanboys ("the best of the best" ha, ha, ha)
>
> a) you accept the fact the there is no such thing as "the best" tool,
> IDE, computer language, etc.
>
> b) many depends on individual preferences, the task at hand, experience,
> education, requirements, etc. And, yes, even it seems many depends on
> the mental health and sanity of the user
>
> c) Which, as a consequence, means you, and only you can decide what is
> "the best" in your particular circumstances, with your particular
> background.
>
> d) In other words: Try them. Try them all, or at least try as much as
> you can get your hands on
>
> e) Select at least two you like best and use them. Two, or more, so you
> don't get dependent on a certain IDE. So you aren't helpless, don't look
> stupid, and don't have to whine should you have to work in an
> environment where your "best" tool is not available. So you can look
> beyond your own nose and don't have to utter nonsense like "the best of
> the best oft the ..."
>
> f) Learn to use the command line tools, too. For the same reason as
> above. In fact, I in general suggest to first master the command line
> tools and all the basics around them before starting with an IDE.
>
> > Does eclipse have the power of netbeans?
>
> Power? Another meaningless term in this discussion. It depends on what
> you need.
>
> > Thanks, dude....
>
> You are aware that many people here don't like to be called "dude"?
>
> /Thomas
> --
> The comp.lang.java.gui FAQ:
> http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/faqs/faqs-hie...lang.java.gui/
> ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/...g/java/gui/faq


Heh, heh. And don't forget:

g) now, when you've completed a - f, fill out your application for a
retirement home, since that has taken your entire life. Of course, java
is no longer in use at this time, but you can benefit from your vast
research by writing an archeological tomb describing odd strctural
languages for human control of digital computers in the 21st century.

And, dude, I said dude, because some people don't like dude, and
somebody called me dude, so just to tease that dude, I said dude, but
of course everyone reading it probably felt like I was calling them
dude, see what I mean, dude?

BillJosephson wrote:
> Thomas Weidenfeller wrote:
>> BillJosephson wrote:
> Heh, heh. And don't forget:
>
> g) now, when you've completed a - f, fill out your application for a
> retirement home, since that has taken your entire life. Of course, java
> is no longer in use at this time, but you can benefit from your vast
> research by writing an archeological tomb describing odd strctural
> languages for human control of digital computers in the 21st century.

Sorry, I was not aware that you don't want to elevate above script
kiddie level. I hope the academic standards at New Mexico State are
higher and they either teach you some common sense or let you fail your
course.

> And, dude, I said dude, because some people don't like dude, and
> somebody called me dude, so just to tease that dude, I said dude, but
> of course everyone reading it probably felt like I was calling them
> dude, see what I mean, dude?

I see that you like to intentionally insult people. For me you sound as
if you are doing too much weed. Both will definitely limit your academic
career.

/Thomas
--
The comp.lang.java.gui FAQ:
http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/faqs/faqs-hie...lang.java.gui/
ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/...g/java/gui/faq

> Howdy. I'm taking a java class, and they unfortunately just have us
> using the DOS cmd liine and notepad to program. I'd like to use a good
> environment. I used to use Codewarrior. Netbeans came with the Java
> download from Sun, but it overwhelmed me, seems like I'd have to invest
> a lot in learning it. Does anybody know of a sleeker, easier to get
> used to environment?

IMHO full blown IDE's such as Netbeans and Eclipse are huge and
bloated, but unfortunately in the industry pretty indispensible if you
are writing J2EE applications.

For standard Java applications, I find heavyweight IDE's more of a
hinderance than a help. Certainly at the level you are at (Learning
Java) they will get in the way more than they will help.

My personal recommendation is to use jEdit (www.jedit.org), since it a
superb text editor (leaving NetBeans and Eclipse far behind in as far
as the editor components go), and is extensible with a host of standard
plugins and macros. The only plugin you will want to start with is the
Console plugin, which will let you write Java program in the editor,
and compile and run them in the integrated console without having to
manually type in the commands each time.

In addition, jEdits console plugin comes with a Beanshell interpreter,
which is great for testing out snippets of Java code to see what it
does without the full compile - run cycle.

Thomas Weidenfeller wrote:
> BillJosephson wrote:
> > Thomas Weidenfeller wrote:
> >> BillJosephson wrote:
> > Heh, heh. And don't forget:
> >
> > g) now, when you've completed a - f, fill out your application for a
> > retirement home, since that has taken your entire life. Of course, java
> > is no longer in use at this time, but you can benefit from your vast
> > research by writing an archeological tomb describing odd strctural
> > languages for human control of digital computers in the 21st century.
>
> Sorry, I was not aware that you don't want to elevate above script
> kiddie level. I hope the academic standards at New Mexico State are
> higher and they either teach you some common sense or let you fail your
> course.
>
> > And, dude, I said dude, because some people don't like dude, and
> > somebody called me dude, so just to tease that dude, I said dude, but
> > of course everyone reading it probably felt like I was calling them
> > dude, see what I mean, dude?
>
> I see that you like to intentionally insult people. For me you sound as
> if you are doing too much weed. Both will definitely limit your academic
> career.
>
> /Thomas
> --
> The comp.lang.java.gui FAQ:
> http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/faqs/faqs-hie...lang.java.gui/
> ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/...g/java/gui/faq


Thomas, when I come here for a quick answer, it is not appropriate to
suggest I go learn all of the environments. I could have figured that
out myself.

Anyway, no intention to hurt your feelings as I apparently did. I was
trying to be humorous. But, no worries. Have a good day...

wrote:
> > Howdy. I'm taking a java class, and they unfortunately just have us
> > using the DOS cmd liine and notepad to program. I'd like to use a good
> > environment. I used to use Codewarrior. Netbeans came with the Java
> > download from Sun, but it overwhelmed me, seems like I'd have to invest
> > a lot in learning it. Does anybody know of a sleeker, easier to get
> > used to environment?
>
> IMHO full blown IDE's such as Netbeans and Eclipse are huge and
> bloated, but unfortunately in the industry pretty indispensible if you
> are writing J2EE applications.
>
> For standard Java applications, I find heavyweight IDE's more of a
> hinderance than a help. Certainly at the level you are at (Learning
> Java) they will get in the way more than they will help.
>
> My personal recommendation is to use jEdit (www.jedit.org), since it a
> superb text editor (leaving NetBeans and Eclipse far behind in as far
> as the editor components go), and is extensible with a host of standard
> plugins and macros. The only plugin you will want to start with is the
> Console plugin, which will let you write Java program in the editor,
> and compile and run them in the integrated console without having to
> manually type in the commands each time.
>
> In addition, jEdits console plugin comes with a Beanshell interpreter,
> which is great for testing out snippets of Java code to see what it
> does without the full compile - run cycle.


Thanks much. I came back to this thread because jGRASP is a horrible
editor. I can't indent so spend all my time trying to get tabs lined
up. Drives me batty. I never realized how much i depend on smart
editors. Tempted to use emacs, but I don't know how to get it to work
with a java compiler in windows.

Thanks....

BillJosephson wrote:
> Thanks much. I came back to this thread because jGRASP is a horrible
> editor. I can't indent so spend all my time trying to get tabs lined
> up. Drives me batty. I never realized how much i depend on smart
> editors. Tempted to use emacs, but I don't know how to get it to work
> with a java compiler in windows.
>
If you want a good, capable, easy to use Windows editor, visit Winsite
<http://www.winsite.com/> and pick up PFE, Programmer's File Editor. You
want the 9x version.

Apart from ported *nix editors, e.g. microEmacs, its the best Windows
text editor I know. Yes, it does auto-indentation. It also configure it
differently for each file extension. About the only things it doesn't do
are colored syntax and regex searching. Its easy to make it run javac
and return the error messages in a window.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Thomas Weidenfeller wrote:
> BillJosephson wrote:
> > Thomas Weidenfeller wrote:
> >> BillJosephson wrote:
> > Heh, heh. And don't forget:
> >
> > g) now, when you've completed a - f, fill out your application for a
> > retirement home, since that has taken your entire life. Of course, java
> > is no longer in use at this time, but you can benefit from your vast
> > research by writing an archeological tomb describing odd strctural
> > languages for human control of digital computers in the 21st century.
>
> Sorry, I was not aware that you don't want to elevate above script
> kiddie level. I hope the academic standards at New Mexico State are
> higher and they either teach you some common sense or let you fail your
> course.

Uncalled for.

>
> > And, dude, I said dude, because some people don't like dude, and
> > somebody called me dude, so just to tease that dude, I said dude, but
> > of course everyone reading it probably felt like I was calling them
> > dude, see what I mean, dude?
>
> I see that you like to intentionally insult people. For me you sound as
> if you are doing too much weed. Both will definitely limit your academic
> career.

Dude isn't insulting.

>
> /Thomas
> --
> The comp.lang.java.gui FAQ:
> http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/faqs/faqs-hie...lang.java.gui/
> ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/...g/java/gui/faq

wrote:
> > Howdy. I'm taking a java class, and they unfortunately just have us
> > using the DOS cmd liine and notepad to program. I'd like to use a good
> > environment. I used to use Codewarrior. Netbeans came with the Java
> > download from Sun, but it overwhelmed me, seems like I'd have to invest
> > a lot in learning it. Does anybody know of a sleeker, easier to get
> > used to environment?
>
> IMHO full blown IDE's such as Netbeans and Eclipse are huge and
> bloated, but unfortunately in the industry pretty indispensible if you
> are writing J2EE applications.
>
> For standard Java applications, I find heavyweight IDE's more of a
> hinderance than a help. Certainly at the level you are at (Learning
> Java) they will get in the way more than they will help.
>
> My personal recommendation is to use jEdit (www.jedit.org), since it a
> superb text editor (leaving NetBeans and Eclipse far behind in as far
> as the editor components go), and is extensible with a host of standard
> plugins and macros. The only plugin you will want to start with is the
> Console plugin, which will let you write Java program in the editor,
> and compile and run them in the integrated console without having to
> manually type in the commands each time.
>
> In addition, jEdits console plugin comes with a Beanshell interpreter,
> which is great for testing out snippets of Java code to see what it
> does without the full compile - run cycle.

Hi, thanks, I'm giving it a try. I got it running, but when I try to
get plugins I get some connection error, so have gotten stopped. Still,
looks good and I'll try to get help in their forums.

If you just wanted a debugger and the ability to run code, what are the
minimum plugins you'd recommend?

Thanks much.