«

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 23:00:18 -0400, "news.rcn.com" <news.rnc.com>
wrote:

>
>"Mark" <> wrote in message
>news:.. .
>> On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 16:13:49 -0400, "news.rcn.com" <news.rnc.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Hoping this isn't too OT but I am coming to the UK next week and wanted to
>>>use my American mobile phone
>>>
>>>Not sure if there have been changes in UK service charges but last time I
>>>tried this, I was charged about fifty times what I had ever been charged
>>>before to do this. Learned my lesson on receiving my phone bill.
>>>
>>>I cant (or haven't yet) found a cellular phone which will let me use my
>>>VOIP
>>>service, nor do I think there are any open networks near me I can log on
>>>to
>>>and I have no broadband access in the UK as far as I know.
>>>
>>>Are there any places I should look in particular for a UK (presumably
>>>pre-paid?) SIM card or are they all about the same price? (or do I mean
>>>are
>>>all the call charges about the same price?) I have T-Mobile, a Vonage
>>>account, and a VoipFone account. Is there any service I should avoid?
>>
>> Seeing as you have a Voipfone account then make use of their call-back
>> service to make outgoing calls from your UK mobile number (UK and
>> Intl). You need to be able to access the Voipfone website to set this
>> up.
>>
>> The Voipfone callback rate is cheapest for the O2 network. (8.4p/min
>> plus Voipfone's outgoing charges). That will easily beat O2 PAYG
>> rates for UK landline calling. Only Vigin mobile's PAYG rates for the
>> UK come anywhere near that, and then you need to use 5mins/day at
>> 15p/min before the 5p/minute rate kicks-in.
>>
>> You can get an O2 SIM card for around £10 at various outlets including
>> O2, CarphoneWarehouse shops etc. (Virgin Mobile SIMs are a bit
>> cheaper). Online they are sometimes free, but you probably won't be
>> able to take delivery
>>
>> I assume your phone is GSM-capable and can work on either or both of
>> 900/1800MHz.
>>
>> If you are bringing a laptop you can use Skype for free at
>> QinetiQ/Broadreach ("ReadyToSurf") hotspots which are at many London
>> mainline rail stations and other locations.
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4312101.stm
>>
>> Finally, if you get an IPKall.com number you can point it at your
>> Voipfone account. Forward your Voipfone account to your UK mobile
>> number and US callers could call you very cheaply (or free). You will
>> obviously pay the UK divert charges (at the usual Voipfone rate).
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Mark
>
>What I really need is to be able to call UK numbers reasonably
>inexpensively: It is useful that my customers can call me from the US
>without it costing them a fortune but calls to the UK from the US tend to
>cost 2.4 cents a minute if you know what you are doing and if you don't,
>you probably don't care anyway.
>
>So buying an O2 card when I arrive seems to be the way to go? I don't
>imagine I will be able to get one free at my London address before I arrive
>on 22nd August? It might be worthwhile trying: Is there a site somewhere
>and how do they work, do you have to 'fill them up' with prepaid minutes in
>some way when you are there? (I did this in Portugal four years ago and
>could fill a card up from any ATM but the cost of calls was astronomical)
>And then at what SORT OF rate do they charge you for calls you make?

One of the cheapest ways to directly call a range of UK geographic
numbers on PAYG is to use Virgin mobile especially if you expect to
make more than 5mins of calls per day.

Overall mobile coverage (Virgin is a virtual on T-mobile) is commonly
said to be not as good as the other GSM networks but you probably
won't notice.

Top up pre-pay credit in various ways. More info:
http://www.virgin.com/gateways/mobile/

Virgin (TMobile) coverage is no worse than any other network's coverage. Not
all the country is covered; 99% of population for all networks.

If you believe that TMobile has a poor coverage read the comments on this NG
and you will note that all networks are criticised, it depends on where you
want the phone to work and then choose the best operator.

"Mark" <> wrote in message
news:...
> On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 23:00:18 -0400, "news.rcn.com" <news.rnc.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mark" <> wrote in message
>>news:. ..
>>> On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 16:13:49 -0400, "news.rcn.com" <news.rnc.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hoping this isn't too OT but I am coming to the UK next week and wanted
>>>>to
>>>>use my American mobile phone
>>>>
>>>>Not sure if there have been changes in UK service charges but last time
>>>>I
>>>>tried this, I was charged about fifty times what I had ever been charged
>>>>before to do this. Learned my lesson on receiving my phone bill.
>>>>
>>>>I cant (or haven't yet) found a cellular phone which will let me use my
>>>>VOIP
>>>>service, nor do I think there are any open networks near me I can log on
>>>>to
>>>>and I have no broadband access in the UK as far as I know.
>>>>
>>>>Are there any places I should look in particular for a UK (presumably
>>>>pre-paid?) SIM card or are they all about the same price? (or do I mean
>>>>are
>>>>all the call charges about the same price?) I have T-Mobile, a Vonage
>>>>account, and a VoipFone account. Is there any service I should avoid?
>>>
>>> Seeing as you have a Voipfone account then make use of their call-back
>>> service to make outgoing calls from your UK mobile number (UK and
>>> Intl). You need to be able to access the Voipfone website to set this
>>> up.
>>>
>>> The Voipfone callback rate is cheapest for the O2 network. (8.4p/min
>>> plus Voipfone's outgoing charges). That will easily beat O2 PAYG
>>> rates for UK landline calling. Only Vigin mobile's PAYG rates for the
>>> UK come anywhere near that, and then you need to use 5mins/day at
>>> 15p/min before the 5p/minute rate kicks-in.
>>>
>>> You can get an O2 SIM card for around £10 at various outlets including
>>> O2, CarphoneWarehouse shops etc. (Virgin Mobile SIMs are a bit
>>> cheaper). Online they are sometimes free, but you probably won't be
>>> able to take delivery
>>>
>>> I assume your phone is GSM-capable and can work on either or both of
>>> 900/1800MHz.
>>>
>>> If you are bringing a laptop you can use Skype for free at
>>> QinetiQ/Broadreach ("ReadyToSurf") hotspots which are at many London
>>> mainline rail stations and other locations.
>>>
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4312101.stm
>>>
>>> Finally, if you get an IPKall.com number you can point it at your
>>> Voipfone account. Forward your Voipfone account to your UK mobile
>>> number and US callers could call you very cheaply (or free). You will
>>> obviously pay the UK divert charges (at the usual Voipfone rate).
>>>
>>> HTH
>>>
>>> Mark
>>
>>What I really need is to be able to call UK numbers reasonably
>>inexpensively: It is useful that my customers can call me from the US
>>without it costing them a fortune but calls to the UK from the US tend to
>>cost 2.4 cents a minute if you know what you are doing and if you don't,
>>you probably don't care anyway.
>>
>>So buying an O2 card when I arrive seems to be the way to go? I don't
>>imagine I will be able to get one free at my London address before I
>>arrive
>>on 22nd August? It might be worthwhile trying: Is there a site somewhere
>>and how do they work, do you have to 'fill them up' with prepaid minutes
>>in
>>some way when you are there? (I did this in Portugal four years ago and
>>could fill a card up from any ATM but the cost of calls was astronomical)
>>And then at what SORT OF rate do they charge you for calls you make?
>
> One of the cheapest ways to directly call a range of UK geographic
> numbers on PAYG is to use Virgin mobile especially if you expect to
> make more than 5mins of calls per day.
>
> Overall mobile coverage (Virgin is a virtual on T-mobile) is commonly
> said to be not as good as the other GSM networks but you probably
> won't notice.
>
> Top up pre-pay credit in various ways. More info:
> http://www.virgin.com/gateways/mobile/
>

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 23:00:18 -0400, "news.rcn.com" <news.rnc.com>
wrote:

>It is useful that my customers can call me from the US
>without it costing them a fortune but calls to the UK from the US tend to
>cost 2.4 cents a minute if you know what you are doing and if you don't,
>you probably don't care anyway.

Calls to a UK mobile number will cost a fair bit more than that. In
the UK, the caller pays for the call, including the mobile leg.

How will your customers know your UK phone number? Will they be able
to cope with adding the international dial string? Many US people
never make international calls, and may not know how to.

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 10:40:26 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
<> wrote:

>"news.rcn.com" <news.rnc.com> wrote in message
>news:
>> BTW Thanks for posting my question for me: (I didnt know
>> about the NG)
>> Trying to use voip doesnt seem to have many advantages,
>> especially if there are no open networks near my home!
>
>Especially as using someone else's network (open or not, other than a
>genuine hotspot) without their permission is an offence.

Is it? What specific law is it that makes that illegal?

Chris

Thus spaketh Chris Blunt:
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 10:40:26 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
> <> wrote:
>
>> "news.rcn.com" <news.rnc.com> wrote in message
>> news:
>>> BTW Thanks for posting my question for me: (I didnt know
>>> about the NG)
>>> Trying to use voip doesnt seem to have many advantages,
>>> especially if there are no open networks near my home!
>>
>> Especially as using someone else's network (open or not, other than a
>> genuine hotspot) without their permission is an offence.
>
> Is it? What specific law is it that makes that illegal?
>
> Chris


*Communications Act 2003*

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/20030021.htm


See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4721723.stm - A recent court
case, which saw a West London man fined £500 and sentenced to 12 months'
conditional discharge for hijacking a wireless broadband connection, has
repercussions for almost every user of wi-fi networks.


--
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Use 07962461234 referral +£5: www.southeastbirmingham.co.uk/payg
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{{{{{Welcome}}}}} wrote:

> Thus spaketh Chris Blunt:
>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 10:40:26 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
>> <> wrote:
>>
>>> "news.rcn.com" <news.rnc.com> wrote in message
>>> news:
>>>> BTW Thanks for posting my question for me: (I didnt know
>>>> about the NG)
>>>> Trying to use voip doesnt seem to have many advantages,
>>>> especially if there are no open networks near my home!
>>>
>>> Especially as using someone else's network (open or not, other than a
>>> genuine hotspot) without their permission is an offence.

What's the definition of a "genuine" hotspot?

>> Is it? What specific law is it that makes that illegal?

> *Communications Act 2003*
>
> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/20030021.htm

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/30021--c.htm#125

in case anyone was struggling to wade through all the legalese. Presumably
that Act only covers access to paid-for services. So changing your MAC
address every day to get free Wifi on GNER trains could land you in prison.

--
<http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) ()
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{{{{{Welcome}}}}} wrote:
> Thus spaketh Chris Blunt:
> > On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 10:40:26 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
> > <> wrote:
.......
> >> Especially as using someone else's network (open or not, other than a
> >> genuine hotspot) without their permission is an offence.
> >
> > Is it? What specific law is it that makes that illegal?
> >
> > Chris
>
>
> *Communications Act 2003*
>
> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/20030021.htm
>
>
> See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4721723.stm - A recent court
> case, which saw a West London man fined £500 and sentenced to 12 months'
> conditional discharge for hijacking a wireless broadband connection, has
> repercussions for almost every user of wi-fi networks.
>

Interesting. The relevant part of the Communications Act seems to be in
Section 125: Dishonestly obtaining electronic communications
services

(1) A person who-
(a) dishonestly obtains an electronic communications service, and
(b) does so with intent to avoid payment of a charge applicable
to the provision of that service,
is guilty of an offence.

So it has to be *dishonestly* obtaining. I can see that if someone has
secured their wi-fi network, then this makes it clear that they want to
restrict access -- like locking the garden gate. If someone breaks the
security, like picking the lock on the gate, that starts to look
dishonest to me.

But if they have not bothered to secure the network, just as if they
had left the garden gate open, it does not seem *dishonest* to wander
in. OK -- if the owner says you are trespassing, it is only polite to
leave quietly. But they might just be nice people, happy to give open
access within reason.

I wonder what arguments a lawyer can think up.

Inman Harvey

"{{{{{Welcome}}}}}" <bhx___spam@trapped___hotmail.co.uk>
wrote in message
news8FDg.2832$ k
> Thus spaketh Chris Blunt:
> > On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 10:40:26 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
> > <> wrote:

[snip]

> > > Especially as using someone else's network (open or
> > > not, other than a genuine hotspot) without their
> > > permission is an offence.
> >
> > Is it? What specific law is it that makes that illegal?
>
> *Communications Act 2003*
>
> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/20030021.htm
>
> See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4721723.stm -
> A recent court case, which saw a West London man fined
> £500 and sentenced to 12 months' conditional discharge
> for hijacking a wireless broadband connection, has
> repercussions for almost every user of wi-fi networks.

I think the Computer Misuse Act comes into it somewhere as well.

Ivor

<> wrote in message
news: ps.com

[snip]

> But if they have not bothered to secure the network, just
> as if they had left the garden gate open, it does not
> seem *dishonest* to wander in. OK -- if the owner says
> you are trespassing, it is only polite to leave quietly.
> But they might just be nice people, happy to give open
> access within reason.
>
> I wonder what arguments a lawyer can think up.

Enough, probably. I'm not a lawyer, but it would seem to me that just
because someone leaves their front door open it's still not ok to walk in
and help yourself to stuff.

The house owner would be a fool, but it's still not legal to steal, even
from fools.

Ivor

"Ivor Jones" <> wrote in message
news:...
> "news.rcn.com" <news.rnc.com> wrote in message
> news:
>> BTW Thanks for posting my question for me: (I didnt know
>> about the NG)
>> Trying to use voip doesnt seem to have many advantages,
>> especially if there are no open networks near my home!
>
> Especially as using someone else's network (open or not, other than a
> genuine hotspot) without their permission is an offence.

I suppose this means that using a Vonage VoIP handset phone must
therefore, - almost always, - be illegal in the UK as you can never have
the netwrok administrator's permission to log into their network?

Has Vonage publicised this point or is it just not true?