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Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

 
 
Mike Thompson
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      01-02-2005

'Seaside' is a Smalltalk framework for what might be called "Modal Web
Development" or "Synchronous Web Programming", or even "Continuation
Based Web Apps".

http://www.beta4.com/seaside2/

Very sexy it looks too. And it seems to be generating a lot of interest
- Ruby and Java variants have already sprung up:

http://rubyforge.org/projects/borges/
http://lakeshore.sourceforge.net/

I googled for the python spin-off but didn't find one. Closest I found
was Imposter (http://csoki.ki.iif.hu/~vitezg/impostor/) which looks like
an earlier, partially failed attempt to do what Seaside now seems to be
delivering.

Anyway, I guess all I'm doing is drawing this to the community's
attention. Sophisticated web applications seems to be one of Python's
key domains and this looks a significant new development in the area.

--
Mike
 
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@(none)
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      01-02-2005
Mike Thompson wrote:
> 'Seaside' is a Smalltalk framework for what might be called "Modal Web
> Development" or "Synchronous Web Programming", or even "Continuation
> Based Web Apps".


Continuation Based Frameworks seem to be getting quite some attention
lately. For example in the Lisp world. Check out Bill Clementson's blog
for some excellent posts.

http://home.comcast.net/~bc19191/blog/041229.html

And Seaside looks indeed very nice. Would be good to see it generate
some new interests in Smalltalk/Squeak.

> I googled for the python spin-off but didn't find one.


Does Python really need yet another framework? Apart from the
intellectual excersise, wouldn't it be nice if Python would get a
framework "for the rest of us" (meaning: mere mortals) which would focus
upon getting work done in a simple manner instead of creating yet
another, new, hip, exciting, way of creating dynamic websites? If Python
cannot deliver a PHP clone, at least you would expect a Rails lookalike.
And though part of the Rails stack may be surpassed easily by Python
equivalents, no Python alternative offers (imho of course) the same
level of simplicity, elegance and pragmatism (!!) as Rails does.

Regards,

Iwan
 
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gabriele renzi
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      01-02-2005
Mike Thompson ha scritto:
>
> 'Seaside' is a Smalltalk framework for what might be called "Modal Web
> Development" or "Synchronous Web Programming", or even "Continuation
> Based Web Apps".
>
> http://www.beta4.com/seaside2/
>
> Very sexy it looks too. And it seems to be generating a lot of interest
> - Ruby and Java variants have already sprung up:
>
> http://rubyforge.org/projects/borges/
> http://lakeshore.sourceforge.net/


actually, there are also implementations in Scheme, Common Lisp
(UnCommonWeb) and Cocoon-FLOW has similar concepts.
And somewhere (I think on the portland pattern repository) I recall
reading that Viaweb (aka "the first web app") was written in CPS. Also
notice that the Wee project in ruby is more advanced that Borges.

> I googled for the python spin-off but didn't find one. Closest I found
> was Imposter (http://csoki.ki.iif.hu/~vitezg/impostor/) which looks like
> an earlier, partially failed attempt to do what Seaside now seems to be
> delivering.


I think "independent" more than earlier, it seem many people are
reinventing this from time to time.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that IIRC something on this lines
appeared recently in the nevow svn tree, maybe you can take a look.
 
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Steve Holden
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      01-02-2005
gabriele renzi wrote:

> Mike Thompson ha scritto:
>
>>
>> 'Seaside' is a Smalltalk framework for what might be called "Modal Web
>> Development" or "Synchronous Web Programming", or even "Continuation
>> Based Web Apps".
>>
>> http://www.beta4.com/seaside2/
>>
>> Very sexy it looks too. And it seems to be generating a lot of
>> interest - Ruby and Java variants have already sprung up:
>>
>> http://rubyforge.org/projects/borges/
>> http://lakeshore.sourceforge.net/

>
>
> actually, there are also implementations in Scheme, Common Lisp
> (UnCommonWeb) and Cocoon-FLOW has similar concepts.
> And somewhere (I think on the portland pattern repository) I recall
> reading that Viaweb (aka "the first web app") was written in CPS. Also
> notice that the Wee project in ruby is more advanced that Borges.
>
>> I googled for the python spin-off but didn't find one. Closest I found
>> was Imposter (http://csoki.ki.iif.hu/~vitezg/impostor/) which looks
>> like an earlier, partially failed attempt to do what Seaside now seems
>> to be delivering.

>
>
> I think "independent" more than earlier, it seem many people are
> reinventing this from time to time.
> Anyway, I just wanted to point out that IIRC something on this lines
> appeared recently in the nevow svn tree, maybe you can take a look.


I did actually do some sort-of-related work in this area, which I
presented at PyCon DC 2004 - you can access the paper at

http://www.python.org/pycon/dc2004/p..._A_Context.pdf

An audience member mentioned the Smalltalk and Scheme-based work on web
continuation frameworks, and I was sorry my answer at the time seemed
unduly dismissive. There are some interesting similarities, and though
my own implementation is decidedly clunky I like to think the paper
explains some of the advantages of maintaining state and why the "back"
button is an obnoxious anachronism

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/
Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/
Holden Web LLC +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119
 
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Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone
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      01-02-2005
Mike Thompson <none.by.e-mail> wrote:

> I googled for the python spin-off but didn't find one. Closest I found


Get Nevow with wolf (flow backwards, in the svn sandbox).
http://www.divmod.org/cvs/sandbox/ph...lf/?root=Nevow

You will need stackless or greenlet if using CPython.

--
Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone
Now Running MacOSX 10.3.7
Blog: http://vvolonghi.blogspot.com
http://weever.berlios.de
 
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Kendall Clark
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      01-02-2005
On Sun, Jan 02, 2005 at 10:03:10AM -0500, Steve Holden wrote:

> I did actually do some sort-of-related work in this area, which I
> presented at PyCon DC 2004 - you can access the paper at
>
> http://www.python.org/pycon/dc2004/p..._A_Context.pdf
>
> An audience member mentioned the Smalltalk and Scheme-based work on web
> continuation frameworks, and I was sorry my answer at the time seemed
> unduly dismissive.


That was me, actually. I remain surprised that there isn't a move
afoot either to implement something like Seaside or Borges in Python
or to adapt one of the existing web frameworks to be
modal/continuation style.

Between this pressure (which isn't new, since as Steve points out, I
was talking about this in Python community last year, and I wasn't
nearly the first) and the growing popularity of Ruby on Rails, there's
some small hint that Ruby is gaining on Python re: non-Java web app
mind share. I think that's a v. important niche for Python and would
like to see us remain strong there (though I've not *done* much about
this, alas).

> There are some interesting similarities, and though
> my own implementation is decidedly clunky I like to think the paper
> explains some of the advantages of maintaining state and why the "back"
> button is an obnoxious anachronism


I'd still like to publish a piece on XML.com about modal web app
style, preferably with a Python example, though Borges would be fine.

Best,
Kendall Clark
XML.com Managing Editor
 
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Jon Perez
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      01-02-2005
none wrote:

> Does Python really need yet another framework? Apart from the
> intellectual excersise, wouldn't it be nice if Python would get a
> framework "for the rest of us" (meaning: mere mortals) which would focus
> upon getting work done in a simple manner instead of creating yet
> another, new, hip, exciting, way of creating dynamic websites? If Python
> cannot deliver a PHP clone, at least you would expect a Rails lookalike.


Spyce (http://spyce.sf.net) would be the superior Python-based PHP clone
you are looking for.
 
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Paul Rubin
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      01-02-2005
Kendall Clark <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> That was me, actually. I remain surprised that there isn't a move
> afoot either to implement something like Seaside or Borges in Python
> or to adapt one of the existing web frameworks to be
> modal/continuation style.


Since Python doesn't have continuations, that would be a bit tricky.
 
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Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone
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      01-03-2005
Paul Rubin <http://(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Since Python doesn't have continuations, that would be a bit tricky.


Since I've already said Nevow with wolf works the same as borges.
The only thing that wouldn't work without continuations is the back
button. With greenlet module (from Armin Rigo) also the back button will
work.

I've also already posted an url to the svn sandbox with a working
example inside.

--
Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone
Now Running MacOSX 10.3.7
Blog: http://vvolonghi.blogspot.com
http://weever.berlios.de
 
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Paul Rubin
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      01-03-2005
dial#####$#$#NOSPAM####$$##$(E-Mail Removed) (Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone) writes:
> Since I've already said Nevow with wolf works the same as borges.
> The only thing that wouldn't work without continuations is the back
> button. With greenlet module (from Armin Rigo) also the back button will
> work.


Thanks, I'm not familiar with wolf, borges, or greenlet. I've also
been wondering what Rails is.

Maybe some configuration of PyPy can supply first-class continuations
like the old Stackless did. That would be really cool for all sorts
of reasons.

Then again, maybe it's reasonable to just fake it all, using ordinary
threads and queues. I might try coding something that way.
 
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