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Hello all.

I'm in the process of writing a business app in Python. (defining
business app: data entry, validation, interactive reports, etc). For
my purposes, it must be a native app (wxWidgets, GTK or Qt-based). A
web application will not do it (although I would love it).

To make a long history short: I used to develop business apps for a
living for a long time (up to the mid 90s). My last experiences were
with Delphi and VB. I know Python, but all projects I've done were
either scripts for sysadmin work, or were networking related (I did
SNMP, NetFlow, and a few web apps, also). Now, a friend of mine asked
me to write a new app for his company, and a I suggested doing it in
Python. I am limited to free tools only, by definition. So I collected
a few questions that I would like to ask here.

-- Which IDEs are better suited for business apps? I use PythonWin for
most of my scripting work in Windows. On occasion, I edit in PythonWin
or SciTE and run using the command line interpreter. I've downloaded
Boa and PythonCard, and while both work (to a reasonable degree), I
found both lacking for a RAD style development cycle. Are these tools
being used for production code?

-- Which free design tools are being actively used for business app
development? (includes database-design, UML, etc). There are many
tools available around, but most seem to be abandoned, or were used
for some specific task and never touched again. I would like to know
more about what is actually being used in production environments.

Thanks in advance for any answer. Best regards,

--
Carlos Ribeiro
Consultoria em Projetos
blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
mail:
mail:

> For
> my purposes, it must be a native app (wxWidgets, GTK or Qt-based). A
> web application will not do it (although I would love it).

Keep in mind that it is still possible to write an XUL application with
Mozilla this way, and for example ActiveState has done this to develop
their IDE. One could for example write an application that is local and
then later could be web based. I've not used XUL but it looks
interesting. In a sense maybe this approach is not so different from
what MS is calling "Avalon" (?) -- the latest and greatest MS vaporware.

I've used Tkinter which has a long history and is probably the most
portable and stable -- but I've been thinking of trying out wxWidgits.
GTK+ is really for linux only -- but there is a port to windows, and QT
-- just be careful with the liscence, it is not free when writing
commercial code.

> Now, a friend of mine asked
> me to write a new app for his company, and a I suggested doing it in
> Python.

I can only tell you what my impression is regarding python -- it would
be good to hear from others. Most businesses probably use VB or Java
for what your talking about (or perhaps C++). I'm not trying to
encourage that -- and in fact I like and use python. I have used python
for a few applications for the business I work for -- Tkinter based and
I sued PythonWin IDE. As you say, the development tools were rather
primative -- and tkinter though claiming to be native -- is not exactly so.

ActiveState provides some commericial tools -- you might want to take a
look and they also provide a plugin for MS Visual Studio. This is also
a wonder -- is there Python support in Eclipse? I'm not certain.

> -- Which IDEs are better suited for business apps? I use PythonWin for
> most of my scripting work in Windows. On occasion, I edit in PythonWin
> or SciTE and run using the command line interpreter. I've downloaded
> Boa and PythonCard, and while both work (to a reasonable degree), I
> found both lacking for a RAD style development cycle. Are these tools
> being used for production code?

I don't know. Be good to hear from others. By the way, emacs also has
a python mode. I personally have been thinking of looking at Boa but
have not used it.

> -- Which free design tools are being actively used for business app
> development? (includes database-design, UML, etc). There are many
> tools available around, but most seem to be abandoned, or were used
> for some specific task and never touched again. I would like to know
> more about what is actually being used in production environments.

Don't know. Maybe others know.

Take care,
Rob

> For
> my purposes, it must be a native app (wxWidgets, GTK or Qt-based). A
> web application will not do it (although I would love it).

Keep in mind that it is still possible to write an XUL application with
Mozilla this way, and for example ActiveState has done this to develop
their IDE. One could for example write an application that is local and
then later could be web based. I've not used XUL but it looks
interesting. In a sense maybe this approach is not so different from
what MS is calling "Avalon" (?) -- the latest and greatest MS vaporware.

I've used Tkinter which has a long history and is probably the most
portable and stable -- but I've been thinking of trying out wxWidgits.
GTK+ is really for linux only -- but there is a port to windows, and QT
-- just be careful with the liscence, it is not free when writing
commercial code.

> Now, a friend of mine asked
> me to write a new app for his company, and a I suggested doing it in
> Python.

I can only tell you what my impression is regarding python -- it would
be good to hear from others. Most businesses probably use VB or Java
for what your talking about (or perhaps C++). I'm not trying to
encourage that -- and in fact I like and use python. I have used python
for a few applications for the business I work for -- Tkinter based and
I sued PythonWin IDE. As you say, the development tools were rather
primative -- and tkinter though claiming to be native -- is not exactly so.

ActiveState provides some commericial tools -- you might want to take a
look and they also provide a plugin for MS Visual Studio. This is also
a wonder -- is there Python support in Eclipse? I'm not certain.

> -- Which IDEs are better suited for business apps? I use PythonWin for
> most of my scripting work in Windows. On occasion, I edit in PythonWin
> or SciTE and run using the command line interpreter. I've downloaded
> Boa and PythonCard, and while both work (to a reasonable degree), I
> found both lacking for a RAD style development cycle. Are these tools
> being used for production code?

I don't know. Be good to hear from others. By the way, emacs also has
a python mode. I personally have been thinking of looking at Boa but
have not used it.

> -- Which free design tools are being actively used for business app
> development? (includes database-design, UML, etc). There are many
> tools available around, but most seem to be abandoned, or were used
> for some specific task and never touched again. I would like to know
> more about what is actually being used in production environments.

Don't know. Maybe others know.

Take care,
Rob

Carlos Ribeiro <> wrote:

> Hello all.
>
> I'm in the process of writing a business app in Python. (defining
> business app: data entry, validation, interactive reports, etc). For
> my purposes, it must be a native app (wxWidgets, GTK or Qt-based). A

OK, but, native to WHAT platform...? Later you mention it must be all
done with free tools... Qt on Windows isn't. QtDesigner is good, but Qt
only free for (free-software dev't on) Unix/Linux and Mac, not for (any
kind of dev't on) Windows.


Alex

Robert M. Emmons <> wrote:
...
> a wonder -- is there Python support in Eclipse? I'm not certain.

Yes, there is now (a relatively recent development), there was a talk
about it at OSCON.


Alex

On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:41:03 +0200, Alex Martelli <> wrote:
> OK, but, native to WHAT platform...? Later you mention it must be all
> done with free tools... Qt on Windows isn't. QtDesigner is good, but Qt
> only free for (free-software dev't on) Unix/Linux and Mac, not for (any
> kind of dev't on) Windows.

It will run in Windows, but it's supposed to be multiplatform -
whatever it means nowadays My friend is toying with the idea to
turn his company into a full Linux based shop. Unfortunately, it's not
a decision that he can't take alone. For now he already managed to
convince his partners to use OpenOffice for a lot of stuff, but a few
things still are done using MS Office based tools. Some internal apps
use MS Access -- the company is small, so there is no need for SQL
Server. And web-based apps are thought to be limited, not interactive
or responsive enough for the job (the dependence on heavy Javascript
programming doesn't help it either).

So I can't use Qt. I've evaluated some wxWidgets-based tools, but
found them not quite ready for prime time. And I'm not inclined to
study XUL just to do it, but I can change my mind. I don't feel
comfortable to use a browser extension to write a full fledged app --
it may be a prejudice of mine (I don't like browser-based Java apps,
either, although its a completely different beast), and a little
reading may help to dispell it.

If I was running a commercial shop now, I would probably use Delphi.
That's what I used a long time ago, and there is still a sizeable
local community still using it (regardless of Borland's diminishing
market share). I'm still pondering my choices.

--
Carlos Ribeiro
Consultoria em Projetos
blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
mail:
mail:

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:28:55 -0500, Robert M. Emmons <> wrote:
> Keep in mind that it is still possible to write an XUL application with
> Mozilla this way, and for example ActiveState has done this to develop
> their IDE.

I hadn't thought about using XUL before. I need to study it better. I
have a certain prejudice against using browser based apps -- for
instance, I don't like browser based Java apps. I don't know if XUL
uses a similar model or not. On the other hand, I really like standard
browser-based Web apps -- using CSS and Javascript and stuff like
that. What I don't like is the basic sandbox model and all the
security issues associated with it. I just don't feel comfortable.

> I've used Tkinter which has a long history and is probably the most
> portable and stable -- but I've been thinking of trying out wxWidgits.
> GTK+ is really for linux only -- but there is a port to windows, and QT
> -- just be careful with the liscence, it is not free when writing
> commercial code.

Tkinter may be good enough for my needs. I just couldn't find a good
RAD style tool to use with it. I found some for wxWidgets, but none
are up to my expectations now.

> I can only tell you what my impression is regarding python -- it would
> be good to hear from others. Most businesses probably use VB or Java
> for what your talking about (or perhaps C++). I'm not trying to
> encourage that -- and in fact I like and use python. I have used python
> for a few applications for the business I work for -- Tkinter based and
> I sued PythonWin IDE. As you say, the development tools were rather
> primative -- and tkinter though claiming to be native -- is not exactly so.

This is an area where the lack of strong commercial drive for Python
really hurts. For all infrastructure related matters one can use
Python without fear. There are plenty of tools and excellent libraries
to support it. But business app development is now mostly focused
towards either an MS tools based environment (VB, VC++, or C#) or
Java-based tools. And I would really like to do it in Python, I think
the language itself is mature and good enough for the job -- only the
tools are missing.


--
Carlos Ribeiro
Consultoria em Projetos
blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
mail:
mail:

> I hadn't thought about using XUL before. I need to study it better. I
> have a certain prejudice against using browser based apps -- for
> instance, I don't like browser based Java apps.

No it is not like java apps. Basically with python you can write an
applciation that runs on your local host that either essentially surves
up XUL or HTML/XHTML pages just like you might in Javascript -- only
it's more like CGI scripting -- or using a fully Javascript generated
page. The advatnage of XUL over HTML is that you get control of the
full window with native looking controls and components.

The other nice thing is that if you use this mode, an application can
probably then be served from a web server at a later date if you want to
do that.

I have not tried this -- but I did a little surfing and reading on the
web a few months ago and it seemed both interesting and a little unique.

There is a book about this titled "Rapid Application Development with
Mozilla" that talks all about this. It is available free on the net
(sorry can't remember the URL, or in print from the bookstore). I don't
know if this discusses python or not, but it certain discusses XUL and
JavaScript.

> And I would really like to do it in Python, I think
> the language itself is mature and good enough for the job -- only the
> tools are missing.

Yes, I've not found anything really. I assume you mean interface
builders in particular? For that matter -- are there any good
opensource interface builders -- I mean really good and integrated with
the IDE etc. I've not seen any.

Rob

> It will run in Windows, but it's supposed to be multiplatform -
> whatever it means nowadays My friend is toying with the idea to
> turn his company into a full Linux based shop.

One stratagy to move to Linux: Move to the web, avoid VB -- use Java
instead, don't use MS Office -- use OpenOffice. This is probably the
most conservative approach. It's hard to see how anyone can be scared
of that approach.

Again -- I not encouraging Java because it's not open source, but it
does have Linux support and is commerical with some free tools and it is
probalby a more conservative choice than python -- though python is way
cool and I like python myself. People also say good things about QT
development environment -- but again that's commerical -- and I don't
know what it has for python support.

> And web-based apps are thought to be limited, not interactive
> or responsive enough for the job (the dependence on heavy Javascript
> programming doesn't help it either).

I believe this is why XUL exists -- to give web based apps a local
applicaiton look and feel.

> And I'm not inclined to
> study XUL just to do it, but I can change my mind. I don't feel
> comfortable to use a browser extension to write a full fledged app --
> it may be a prejudice of mine (I don't like browser-based Java apps,
> either, although its a completely different beast), and a little
> reading may help to dispell it.

Yes I have that concern -- but I've not tried it and don't know either
way. The Active State IDE is writen this way, so there is one example.

Rob

Robert M. Emmons <> wrote:

> There is a book about this titled "Rapid Application Development with
> Mozilla" that talks all about this. It is available free on the net
> (sorry can't remember the URL, or in print from the bookstore). I don't
> know if this discusses python or not, but it certain discusses XUL and
> JavaScript.

I googled. found and downloaded the book, and had a quick check -- alas,
the "discussion" of Python in the book is limited to:
"""
Embedded programmers can use languages such as Perl and Python to drive
all the windows that an application based on the Mozilla Platform
creates. Such uses are not documented here.
"""

While it definitely looks like a worthwhile book on XUL, anybody wanting
to drive XUL from anything except Java or Javascript should, I guess,
look elsewhere (perhaps in _addition_ to said book). I suspect the
easiest way to drive XUL from Python based on this book might be to use
Jython and XUL's Java interfaces (I haven't checked in detail, but
offhand it looks like the book does document XUL's Java interfaces).


Alex