«

Hi I downloaded this document about Python recently:

http://datamining.anu.edu.au/~ole/pu...ons/python.pdf

I loved the cute little Snake graphic.

I think it would be great for Python.org/people behind Python to adopt this
as an official mascot and DROP the god awful references to Monty Pythons's
Flying Circus. It is the later which is causing a slow take up and reluctance
of many individuals using Python. MPFC is a very very dated concept and because
of it's strange whacky 'humour' has dubious extreme and loony left wing allegiences
is not a good backdrop for Python. You should never bring politics into your
product. Understand that in the UK a lot of people don't find MPFC amusing,
and many of the 'comedians' have become extremely dispised (like Michael Palin
who is universally recognised as a figure of great nauseum) and have become
objects of ridicule.

Let me put it this way Python as a languge and product is *damaged* by the
references littered everywhere to MPFC. It colours the experience of it and
when I think what scripting language shall I use to get x task done I think
Python could do that and then oh no I'm not paying homage to the ghastly awful
MPFC **** which I hate and will use Perl or PHP instead which are considerably
more artistically 'neutral'

I quite like Python as a language (apart from the tabbing replacing curly brackets
which I'm not sure about) and think it stands up well to Perl and PHP but I
cannot abide the nauseating, puke enducing, gut-wrenching, toe-curling references
to Monty Python's shitty flying circus which is very much part of the *past*
of an era in British comedy and should not be part of any software package's
image.

Please adopt the cute Python graphic as your official logo and mascot which
works much better because it conjures up a *much more* positive metaphor of
a powerfully slippery creature wrapping itself round numbers and strings etc.

regards

On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 16:50:04 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio <>
wrote:

[...]
> Let me put it this way Python as a languge and product is *damaged* by
> the
> references littered everywhere to MPFC. It colours the experience of it
> and
> when I think what scripting language shall I use to get x task done I
> think
> Python could do that and then oh no I'm not paying homage to the ghastly
> awful
> MPFC **** which I hate and will use Perl or PHP instead which are
> considerably
> more artistically 'neutral'
[...]

Do you have a problem with your news posting software? This post arrived
four days late at my server.

Colin
--

Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Hi I downloaded this document about Python recently:
>
> I loved the cute little Snake graphic.

Some people despise snakes, and are terrified of them.

> I think it would be great for Python.org/people behind Python to adopt this
> as an official mascot and DROP the god awful references to Monty Pythons's
> Flying Circus. It is the later which is causing a slow take up and reluctance
> of many individuals using Python. MPFC is a very very dated concept and because
> of it's strange whacky 'humour' has dubious extreme and loony left wing allegiences
> is not a good backdrop for Python. You should never bring politics into your
> product.

Nor, perhaps, should you bring politics into your arguments, at least
not if you want to maintain credibility with a largely technical crowd.

> I quite like Python as a language (apart from the tabbing replacing curly brackets
> which I'm not sure about)

So clearly you haven't used it even enough to get past this concern
about indentation, which generally goes away after only a few days
or perhaps weeks of use. That hurts your credibility as well...

> and think it stands up well to Perl and PHP but I
> cannot abide the nauseating, puke enducing, gut-wrenching, toe-curling references

Please, stop, you're ranting and getting spittle on your keyboard.

Come back another time without the venomous, near-psychotic
aversion to a comedy troupe which many people actually *like*,
and try to make your point again. You might get a better
reception.

If you've managed to read this far, which I doubt, then I want you
to know that you might actually have a point. At least about the
Monty Python references not being a particular _strength_ in
promoting Python. (Note how that was said in a positive manner
instead of a raving one?) Nevertheless, you've just insulted a
very large number of the people who participate here frequently,
and you should think about how (in)effective that will make your
argument.

Cheers,
-Peter

Nomen wrote:
> I think it would be great for Python.org/people behind Python to adopt this
> as an official mascot and DROP the god awful references to Monty Pythons's
> Flying Circus. It is the later which is causing a slow take up and reluctance
> of many individuals using Python.
[snip]
> Let me put it this way Python as a languge and product is *damaged* by the
> references littered everywhere to MPFC.

Well, I'll probably get in big trouble for revealing this, but the references
to Monty Python are the result of a very conscious decision on the part of
Python's authors, and they make up but a small part of an elaborate set of user
filters that ensure that only a certain subset of programmers will ever use the
language.

For example, the real reason flame wars on c.l.py are quite tame by Usenet
standards isn't because programming in Python makes you a happier, and in turn
a nicer person, but it's because the group / mailing list regulars are more or
less ALL THE SAME TYPE OF PEOPLE - they are all people who were not removed by
the user filters, and therefore make up a more or less homogeneous bunch. To
hide this fact occasionally someone will get a private email instructing them
to bring up American politics or some other topic sure to incite controversy.
Sure, they obey and bring it up in a thread, but it dies off so quickly because
it's hard to put one's heart into it.

I remember that one time the user filters were suspected by some outsiders, and
Guido privately threatened to introduce mandatory curly braces around code
blocks if we as a group didn't convince people "on the outside" that the
filters didn't exist - hence the big conditional operator debate of '03. We
actually got assigned sides in that debate - didn't even get to pick them
ourselves.

Anyway, the Monty Python references filter out people that are too uptight
humor-wise, but there are many others. For example, if you ask about
significant whitespace you'll get a hand-waving answer about some mysterious
usability study in the ABC language, but nobody's actually ever seen it. In
reality, it's just the filter that gets rid of people who fall apart upon
learning that tedious work they diligently performed in the past was
detrimental to their health (this filter does not work 100% of the time, thus
the more reliable no-variable-type-declarations filter).

The whole "Guido is Dutch" thing is another one - this time used to eliminate
those who fear the unknown. He was born and raised in Quebec, and the accent is
actually French, but so few of us Americans know the difference that it never
gets him in trouble.

There are more filters in place, all of them organized and perpetuated by the
Python Secret Underground - a dark, time-machine wielding organization about
which little is known. Occasionally some details of its work slip through to
the public
(http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...=9jah18%24fqu%
241%40newshost.accu.uu.nl), but often I can't tell if such snafus are honest
mistakes, bait to throw us off-track, or encrypted recruitment messages.

Somebody's at my door - better send this off quick. Before I do though, I do
want to shed light on the all-time greatest user filter put in place by the
PSU - the autocoding project by Ti.*%^ NO CARRIER

In article <>,
Nomen Nescio <> wrote:
>
>Hi I downloaded this document about Python recently:
>
>http://datamining.anu.edu.au/~ole/pu...ons/python.pdf
>
>I loved the cute little Snake graphic.
>
>I think it would be great for Python.org/people behind Python to adopt this
>as an official mascot and DROP the god awful references to Monty Pythons's
>Flying Circus. [ ... ]

The link with Monty Python's Flying Circus is the only
thing that lets us logically use the cute little snake as
our mascot. Ask yourself, "Could a language named after a
snake have a pet comedy troupe?"

Regards. Mel.

Nomen Nescio wrote on Mon, 5 Apr 2004 16:50:04 +0200 (CEST):

<snip>
> I think it would be great for Python.org/people behind Python to adopt this
> as an official mascot and DROP the god awful references to Monty Pythons's
> Flying Circus. It is the later which is causing a slow take up and reluctance
> of many individuals using Python. MPFC is a very very dated concept and because
> of it's strange whacky 'humour' has dubious extreme and loony left wing allegiences
> is not a good backdrop for Python. You should never bring politics into your
<snip>

LOL! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! (Somebody had to say it...)

> MPFC **** which I hate and will use Perl or PHP instead which are considerably

You do know what next-gen Perl will compile to, right? Parrot! Guess where
that name *really* comes from .

> a powerfully slippery creature

Yeeewwwwww...

--
Yours,

Andrei

=====
Real contact info (decode with rot13):
. Fcnz-serr! Cyrnfr qb abg hfr va choyvp cbfgf. V ernq
gur yvfg, fb gurer'f ab arrq gb PP.

In article <lvOdnRJzZ9244ezdRVn->, Peter Hansen <>
wrote:

> Some people despise snakes, and are terrified of them.

Everyone loves cute cuddly snakes and no one in their right mind is afraid
of them. They don't carry any political baggage or meaning.

>
> Nor, perhaps, should you bring politics into your arguments, at least
> not if you want to maintain credibility with a largely technical crowd.

I think politics are introduced when the author uses MPFC as the basis.

> So clearly you haven't used it even enough to get past this concern
> about indentation, which generally goes away after only a few days
> or perhaps weeks of use. That hurts your credibility as well...

Ok. Well the indentation thing which is largely irrelivant...

> If you've managed to read this far, which I doubt, then I want you
> to know that you might actually have a point. At least about the
> Monty Python references not being a particular _strength_ in
> promoting Python.

Sorry if I was ranting but here is some more rant:

People have very real reason to fear MPFC: Highly educated/wealthy family background/private
school/Oxford/Cambridge people jumping about and acting 'zany' and coming up
with all sorts of useless sketches designed to appeal strictly to the liberal-elite
is a fairly repulsive artistic concept especially if you do not find the style
of MPFC even remotely amusing.

Unfortunately this formula (hiring these sorts of people) was to become the
bed rock of BBC alternative comedy for years to come (Ben Elton, Steven Fry
etc etc) and remember people in the UK did not have the choice about this crap
as it came out of their licence fee (that is another subject)

So anyway I don't see quite those sorts of concepts woven into PHP, Perl,C,C++,
Java or anything else....although there may well be similar things but *well*
hidden as they should be

If someone came up with a KKK language it might be attractive for members of
the KKK but would generally be consideredly highly unacceptable and would attract
much criticism. If someone came up with a language/interpreter based on their
favourite TV show like I dunno 'Friends' or whatever it would be seen as ridiculous.
If I came up with a scripting language called 'Ben Elton' then that would have
extreme political overtones and just invoke all Ben Eltons extreme left wing
radicalism.

At the least MPFC is divisive (you either find it funny or you don't)

Surely the uptake and use of a particular language (to solve a particular niche
or set of problems) is at least in part due to the perceived politcal and artist
*neutrality* of that language.

If the author and contributors to Python wish to only encourage Python use
on the basis that the end user has great admiration of MPFC (as amusingly hinted
at by one of the other authors in this thread) you should perhaps restrict
access to python.org and related sites and authenticate on that basis and call
it a private members club....

Cuddly cartoon characters like the Snake, or various BSD creatures = highly
acceptable and good.

MPFC = too aristically/politically/socially 'loaded' to be acceptable.

Please drag the Python and python.org image out of the stuffy past and in line
with similar projects

regards

Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Cuddly cartoon characters like the Snake, or various BSD creatures = highly
> acceptable and good.

Well, one shouldn't feed the trolls. (And kudos on a well done one at
that.) BUT, on the subject of "highly acceptable and good" BSD creatures
see: http://www.erenkrantz.com/Humor/BSDDaemon.shtml for an encounter
with at least two people (and I use that term losely) who would beg to
disagree. If you think "Oxford liberals" are scary...

Stefan,
--
Stefan Axelsson (email at http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~sax)

Oh, I *so* have more important things to do , but okay, I'll play
along for a few seconds...

Nomen Nescio wrote:

>In article <lvOdnRJzZ9244ezdRVn->, Peter Hansen <>
>wrote:
>
>
....

>Cuddly cartoon characters like the Snake, or various BSD creatures = highly
>acceptable and good.
>
>
In terms of "acceptable and good" I think you'll find that Snakes and
Devils/Daemons aren't really high on many people's lists, but then you
know that and are just yanking the chain .

>MPFC = too aristically/politically/socially 'loaded' to be acceptable.
>
>
Here's the thing, you object to the use of MPFC because you see the
particular show as a *silly* waste of money. It's *not taking yourself
so seriously that you lose your sense of humour* that makes MPFC a fine
choice.

The commercial-tower Oak runs around telling the world that it's the
second coming of computer science, the caffeinated solution to all your
problems if you'll just sit down and drink the acorn tea. It knows that
if it can just scream loud enough then people will overlook it's poor
character and weird obsessions and maybe pronounce it king.

Python hasn't developed that level of insecurity, it's perfectly willing
to admit its failings, it's happy to poke fun at itself and admit that
it needs C to be successful; sure, it's better and more privileged than
all of the other programming languages; sure, it's had the best
education and derived huge benefit from it; sure, it's received
patronage from the programming elite; sure, it has metaclasses, list
comprehensions and descriptors like any decent ivory-tower language; but
in the end, all that means nothing if it can't find the humanity in the
situation of explaining things to computers, if you can't make
programming just a little easier for the regular folks.

And if you are taking all *that* seriously, then really, go do a funny
walk somewhere and relax about it. We all pay taxes, and sometimes it
funds things we don't like, it's part of modern life. Sometimes other
people like TV shows we think are insipid or offensive, this too is part
of life, and if you realise and accept that (within reason) you'll be
happier and more content.

Oh, and I like the snake more than the TV show too .

Good luck with coming to terms with all this,
Mike

_______________________________________
Mike C. Fletcher
Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
http://members.rogers.com/mcfletch/

Nomen Nescio wrote:

> In article <lvOdnRJzZ9244ezdRVn->, Peter Hansen <>
> wrote:
>
>>Some people despise snakes, and are terrified of them.
>
> Everyone loves cute cuddly snakes and no one in their right mind is afraid
> of them. They don't carry any political baggage or meaning.

"Cuddly"? I'd hate to meet your girlfriend... and after reading
the first lines of your response I can see clearly you are just
trolling and don't really want a serious discussion. If that's
not a true statement, at least back off this ludicrous claim
and let's try to carry on a rationale discussion. Else: bye.

-Peter