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On Wednesday 26 November 2003 17:02, Clark C. Evans wrote:
> Hello. I'm going to be doing quite a bit of travel in January and
> I'd like to continue to program on-the-road. So, I'm in the market
> to buy a PDA with a fullsize (foldable) keyboard. Does anyone have
> this sort of setup working? I typically use python and vim, with
> postgresql. I don't strictly need postgresql, but having python
> run on the PDA would be nice. Any suggestions?


Python runs great on the Sharp Zaurus. I can personally speak for the
5500 but I suspect it runs fine on the 5600 and the new one that's
only officially available in Europe and/or Asia. I'm currently using
OpenZaurus instead of the Sharp ROM but Python did run on the Sharp
ROM last time I checked. At least on OpenZaurus, Python is split into
a number of packages (i.e., the math module and many other modules are
in separate packages) to limit the amount of storage required. If
you're using any specific Python modules, you may want to check if
someone has created them. I have not checked to see if postgresql is
available.

I use a foldable pocketop keyboard ($99 last time I checked) - it's
not quite fullsize, but it's close. For serious programming I'd
recommend a small laptop vs. a PDA if you can afford the price
difference.

HTH,
Dave

Dave Reed <> wrote in message news:<mailman.1122.1069887869.702.python->...
> On Wednesday 26 November 2003 17:02, Clark C. Evans wrote:
> > Hello. I'm going to be doing quite a bit of travel in January and
> > I'd like to continue to program on-the-road. So, I'm in the market
> > to buy a PDA with a fullsize (foldable) keyboard. [...]
>
> Python runs great on the Sharp Zaurus. I can personally speak for the
> 5500 but I suspect it runs fine on the 5600 and the new one that's
> only officially available in Europe and/or Asia. [...]

I'm using Python on a Sharp Zaurus C760 these days,
one of the Japan models that you can get converted
to English from a number of importers. It comes
with a full VGA (640x480) swivel screen, and a nice
keyboard. The keyboard isn't full size, but it's
much better than the thumbs-key input of most PDAs.

Python runs well on this machine too, with the Sharp
ROM; you can code and run both console and Qtopia
GUI applications. You can also run vim, gcc, mySql,
SQLite, Apache, and so on. With gcc, you can even
code and compile Python C extensions right on the PDA.
There's a new X11 ROM as well (haven't tried it yet).

For me, this PDA is very close to a full laptop
replacement, and utterly blows away the best of
the Palm devices I've owned. The combination of
Linux and Sharp hardware is downright amazing.
If you want a Python to go, this PDA seems ideal.
More details, and a few photos:

http://www.rmi.net/~lutz/pic22.html
http://www.rmi.net/~lutz/pp2e-updates.html#Ss

BTW, Sharp just released a new C860 clamshell model
(essentially the same as the C760), and is going
to release a 6000 non-clamshell in January (nicer
screen, to be sold in the US). Any one of these
would be a good choice, but the landscape-oriented
keyboards on the clamshell models are a bonus to me.

--Mark Lutz (http://www.rmi.net/~lutz)

(Mark Lutz) wrote:

>I'm using Python on a Sharp Zaurus C760 these days,
>one of the Japan models that you can get converted
>to English from a number of importers. It comes
>with a full VGA (640x480) swivel screen, and a nice
>keyboard. The keyboard isn't full size, but it's
>much better than the thumbs-key input of most PDAs.
>
>Python runs well on this machine too, with the Sharp
>ROM; you can code and run both console and Qtopia
>GUI applications. You can also run vim, gcc, mySql,
>SQLite, Apache, and so on. With gcc, you can even
>code and compile Python C extensions right on the PDA.
>There's a new X11 ROM as well (haven't tried it yet).

This machine is very interesting for me too. But three things have
kept me from acquiring it.

First it's a bit pricey, probably about 700 euros or so? Prices tend
to get better so maybe it will become possible in a few months.

Secondly it's not really possible to have a look at it before buying,
because one has to mail order it, but maybe this will change too in
the near future.

Third and most important point for me is that I have some application
I want to use it for, it's my own little pygobo freeware script that
"nobody" wants to download but which is in my opinion the best
sgf-file viewer for baduk there is (at least for someone that can
program Python). However this viewer is written using TKinter and
there seems to be no such thing as Tkinter on any pda.

Could you please comment on any of these points and give some
guesstimate of the time frame in which such a machine will become
feasible for me. I'd *really* like to review go-files while lying in
bed or while walking in the woods or whatever and my script is already
ideally suited for use on such a machine with its full-screen mode and
rotatable go-board (sorry for the plugging)

Anton

(Anton Vredegoor) wrote in message news:<3fcc9577$0$7676$ .nl>...
> (Mark Lutz) wrote:
>
> >I'm using Python on a Sharp Zaurus C760 these days,
> >one of the Japan models that you can get converted
> >to English from a number of importers. It comes
> >with a full VGA (640x480) swivel screen, and a nice
> >keyboard. The keyboard isn't full size, but it's
> >much better than the thumbs-key input of most PDAs.
> >
> >Python runs well on this machine too, with the Sharp
> >ROM; you can code and run both console and Qtopia
> >GUI applications. You can also run vim, gcc, mySql,
> >SQLite, Apache, and so on. With gcc, you can even
> >code and compile Python C extensions right on the PDA.
> >There's a new X11 ROM as well (haven't tried it yet).
>
> This machine is very interesting for me too. But three things have
> kept me from acquiring it.
>
> First it's a bit pricey, probably about 700 euros or so? Prices tend
> to get better so maybe it will become possible in a few months.

This might be a bit off-topic for c.l.py, and I'm
not a Sharp sales rep, but I'll try to answer
what I can here.

I have no idea where prices will go on this line.
There is a cheaper model (C750) if you're willing
to go with less flash memory and a smaller battery
(of these, the battery is the bigger sacrifice--the
760 typically lasts 8 hours).

Of course, whether these PDAs are too pricey in general
depends on the value of such a machine to you. They
cost more than an average PDA, but they are not average
PDAs. They are near laptop replacements. For me, the
extra functionality was worth the price increment. It
runs a full and up-to-date Python, with threads, sockets,
os.popen/fork, and so on, and has a real filesystem and
multitasking. It also lets me leave a laptop at home
more often than before, and provides a much better PDA
experience than I had under PalmOS. But YMMV arbitrarily;
these are completely subjective remarks.

> Secondly it's not really possible to have a look at it before buying,
> because one has to mail order it, but maybe this will change too in
> the near future.

There are a few photos and review links on the page I
mentioned (http://www.rmi.net/~lutz/pic22.html), but
some general googling would be a good idea. Most mail
order places allow returns (you get 5 days at dynamism),
albeit usually with a restocking fee. Some people think
that Sharp will start selling these outside Japan
eventually, but afaik it's still an unknown.

> Third and most important point for me is that I have some application
> I want to use it for, it's my own little pygobo freeware script that
> "nobody" wants to download but which is in my opinion the best
> sgf-file viewer for baduk there is (at least for someone that can
> program Python). However this viewer is written using TKinter and
> there seems to be no such thing as Tkinter on any pda.

The Zaurus runs Qt directly on the frame buffer, so
there is nothing like X11 in the mix. Because of that,
the Tk library, and hence Tkinter, won't run out of
the box, afaik.

You can build GUIs with Qt using the freely available
PyQt package for the Zaurus, but this would require a
recoding of the GUI parts of your program. Qt is a
fairly typical and feature-rich API; it has a unique
slot/signal coding paradigm, the merits of which you
should judge for yourself (he says, desperately trying
to avoid sparking a GUI war . But it seems like a
reasonable toolkit if you're willing to translate.

I have no idea if anyone's trying to port the Tk to the
Zaurus or not; that would be ideal. Barring that, you
could try the X11 ROM for the C7x0 series. In principle,
that might enable Tk and Tkinter (I'd like to try this
myself, if I get some free time).

Other ideas: the anygui Python module has been reported to
work atop Qt on the Zaurus too. anygui isn't as feature-rich
as Qt, but it's simpler, and your scripts should be portable
to platforms other than the Zaurus, even if they don't have
a Qt installed. Because the Zaurus runs a Java VM, you
might have some luck with Jython too (no idea).

> Could you please comment on any of these points and give some
> guesstimate of the time frame in which such a machine will become
> feasible for me. I'd *really* like to review go-files while lying in
> bed or while walking in the woods or whatever and my script is already
> ideally suited for use on such a machine with its full-screen mode and
> rotatable go-board (sorry for the plugging)

I think it's a nice machine, and a great Python platform,
but again, I'm just a satisfied customer. You might also
consult some of the Zaurus forums on the web.

--Mark Lutz (http://www.rmi.net/~lutz)

(Mark Lutz) writes:
> The Zaurus runs Qt directly on the frame buffer, so
> there is nothing like X11 in the mix. Because of that,
> the Tk library, and hence Tkinter, won't run out of
> the box, afaik.

I think that the OpenZaurus OS runs X11. At least for the SL5000/5500,
lots of folks are replacing the Embedix/QT OS and Opera browser with
OpenZaurus and Konqueror.

(Anton Vredegoor) wrote in message news:<3fcc9577$0$7676$ .nl>...

[...]
> However this viewer is written using TKinter and
> there seems to be no such thing as Tkinter on any pda.

Anton,

Although I have not tried it myself, there are reports that
Tkinter has been ported to Windows/CE devices
(like an HP iPAQ for example). Here's a link to the post on the
PythonCE mail list:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pyt...er/000392.html

You can download it from here:

http://fore.validus.com/~kashtan

Rob

(Anton Vredegoor) wrote in message news:<3fcc9577$0$7676$ .nl>...
> (Mark Lutz) wrote:
>
> >I'm using Python on a Sharp Zaurus C760 these days,
> >one of the Japan models that you can get converted
> >to English from a number of importers. It comes
> >with a full VGA (640x480) swivel screen, and a nice
> >keyboard. The keyboard isn't full size, but it's
> >much better than the thumbs-key input of most PDAs.
>
> [...]
>
> Third and most important point for me is that I have some application
> I want to use it for, it's my own little pygobo freeware script that
> "nobody" wants to download but which is in my opinion the best
> sgf-file viewer for baduk there is (at least for someone that can
> program Python). However this viewer is written using TKinter and
> there seems to be no such thing as Tkinter on any pda.

Actually, I should have done a bit of googling on
this myself, before responding on the Tkinter issue
yesterday. You can find information about running
Tk on the Zaurus here:

http://wiki.tcl.tk/zaurus

Still not a simple task, but it looks possible. It looks
like you'll need to get X and Tk running in one of a variety
of ways, and will probably also need to compile Python's Tk
interface module to get Tkinter to work. Again, if I had an
infinite amount of time...

--Mark Lutz (http://www.rmi.net/~lutz)

On 3 Dec 2003 09:07:04 -0800, (Mark Lutz) wrote:

> (Anton Vredegoor) wrote in message news:<3fcc9577$0$7676$ .nl>...

>> there seems to be no such thing as Tkinter on any pda.
>
>Actually, I should have done a bit of googling on
>this myself, before responding on the Tkinter issue
>yesterday. You can find information about running
>Tk on the Zaurus here:
>
>http://wiki.tcl.tk/zaurus
>
>Still not a simple task, but it looks possible. It looks
>like you'll need to get X and Tk running in one of a variety
>of ways, and will probably also need to compile Python's Tk
>interface module to get Tkinter to work. Again, if I had an
>infinite amount of time...

Yes sorry, my statement was too strong. On Windows CE machines Tkinter
seems to be even more common. Thanks to you and Rob for correcting me.
Hmm, I seem to have a lot of time and very little money, maybe we can
work something out? Just kidding

Anton