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Re: Could a single web framework popularize Python?

 
 
Ian Bicking
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      10-07-2003
On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 07:10 AM, Alex Martelli wrote:
> Gilles Lenfant wrote:
> ...
>>> to be the most popular. Then, there's Twisted, which is (I'd say) the
>>> dominant/most popular general-purpose networking framework for
>>> Python.

>>
>> Twisted is *not* a web publishing framework. It's a low level protocol
>> framework, in the same family of packages as Medusa.
>> Or I missed something )

>
> Twisted comprises both lower and higher levels. E.g., see
> http://www.twistedmatrix.com/services/twisted-advantage
> and I quote:
>
> """
> Publish a Web Site
>
> The twisted.web webserver is a scalable, small-footprint web server
> that's
> easy to configure. It's efficient enough to serve a high-traffic
> website,
> completely dynamic and reconfigureable on the fly, and simple enough to
> configure that you can have it set up and running in just minutes after
> you've downloaded it.
> """


Twisted is more like Apache or mod_python than a web framework. Woven
is a framework built on top of Twisted, and the closest thing to The
Twisted Web Framework.

Working directly with Twisted is like writing Python CGI scripts.
Sure, it works, but it's not a "framework". Of course, you can build a
framework on top of it (and you probably will be accident if not
intention).

It gets confusing, though, because Twisted is both a specific program
-- the Twisted server -- and a collection of tools and ideas, as well
as an execution model (asynchronous) that becomes a defining aspect of
Twisted. Woven's architecture is strongly influenced by the
requirements of asynchronous programming. So while there's nothing
keeping other frameworks from working on top of Twisted, Woven is one
of the few (only?) that would really be Twisted style. And of course
Woven is the only real framework included with the Twisted distribution.

--
Ian Bicking | http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) | http://blog.ianbicking.org


 
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Dave Benjamin
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      10-08-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Ian Bicking wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 07:10 AM, Alex Martelli wrote:
>> Twisted comprises both lower and higher levels. E.g., see
>> http://www.twistedmatrix.com/services/twisted-advantage

>
> Twisted is more like Apache or mod_python than a web framework. Woven
> is a framework built on top of Twisted, and the closest thing to The
> Twisted Web Framework.
>
> Working directly with Twisted is like writing Python CGI scripts.
> Sure, it works, but it's not a "framework". Of course, you can build a
> framework on top of it (and you probably will be accident if not
> intention).


I guess it'd help to have a definition for what a web framework really is.
When I was working with mod_python a lot, I definitely had some
infrastructure to build, but it wasn't massive. It was basically a
combination of the following:

- database interface
- session handling
- cookie support (mostly already in the standard Python libs)
- templating
- publisher module (url->function mapping)
- assorted libraries (xml, imaging, etc.)

So, I'd say about half of the "framework" was available as Python libraries
(either built-in or third-party), and the main gaping holes were session
handling and templating. Since then, both of these are also available as
third-party modules.

Maybe Python doesn't have ONE_TRUE_FRAMEWORK because you have a choice in a
lot of these different domains. Maybe that's a blessing in disguise. It does
require that you think and actively make decisions about your architecture.

Dave

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