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RE: Comments on Python Redesign

 
 
Tim Parkin
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      09-07-2003
David/Lulu said:
>Yeah... this moves it from truly awful to merely bad. So that's a good
>step. Even so, the lines of text are squashed together vertically in

an
>awkward way that makes reading difficult. I don't even really know how
>that effect was achieved (or in what browser)... is there a CSS
>attribute for "really small vertical spacing"?


1) it's an image
2) as an image created in fireworks, I expected line spacing to honor
html spacing. It doesn't however so I've fixed it.

>In my experience, good pages remain good even in the complete absence
>of
>their CSS stylesheet. Well, and CERTAINLY good pages do not embed
>ad-hoc <font> tags all over them, but I don't think the redesign demo
>did that. While I'm only guessing, this is a page that would fare
>poorly with the CSS dropped, and with user-specified fonts and colors
>specfied.


1) it's an image
2) images don't have font tags
3) haven't got a clue what you mean about it fairing badly with css
dropped and fonts and colours changed. If by this you mean rendered in
text mode then the design would be a lot better than the existing site
as IT'S AN IMAGE you don't really have any way of knowing.

>The problem is that it is WAY over-designed. It looks like something
>you'd design for a magazine, not for the web, with many browsers
>possible. Parkins, or whoever, has a certain browser and screen size,
>and probably took out a ruler to align everything properly on that
>unique combination.


1) My name is parkin.
2) The site is designed to reflect the expectations of commercial
customers who are used to the likes of peoplesoft and atg, etc. also
it's designed to project an image to set Python alongside existing
enterprise programming langagues (apologies for using the e word)
3) it's an image. Images don't stretch. If I make it any bigger
it would not fit in 800 wide browsers. A lot of designers make a choice
between fixed width and fluid. I would probably choose fluid for all
but the home page however I'm looking at fluid techniques for that too.

Tim



 
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Dave Brueck
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      09-07-2003
On Monday 08 September 2003 10:43 am, Aahz wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>
> Graham Fawcett <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >Rather than throw stones, I have created a *brand new design* design for
> >Python.org. I am certain that will satisfy both the technical users and
> >the suit-wearing investigators. It borrows the time-honoured stylings of
> >the old Python site, and blends them with some upscale business moxy.
> >
> >Take a look:
> >
> >http://tinyurl.com/mlcv

>
> Many people, me included, won't follow tinyurl links; please provide a
> standard URL, too.


Why? Are you worried that he'll redirect you to kiddie porn or something?

 
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Dave Brueck
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      09-08-2003
On Monday 08 September 2003 12:57 pm, Graham Fawcett wrote:
> Aahz wrote:
> >Many people, me included, won't follow tinyurl links; please provide a
> >standard URL, too.

[snip]
> Thanks for the heads-up re: tinyurl. I realize that some unfriendly folk
> may enjoy sending people to goatse or some similarly unsavoury site; I
> guess I haven't been burned and have enjoyed the brevity of those URLs.


I don't know of any problem with tinyurls - *any* server can provide a "bad"
redirect; as with any URL whether or not you follow it depends on the context
and on how much you trust the sender. Maybe Aahz has another reason in mind,
but I don't know of any reason to stop using them.

-Dave

 
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Y2KYZFR1
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      09-08-2003
"Tim Parkin" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...



> 2) The site is designed to reflect the expectations of commercial
> customers who are used to the likes of peoplesoft and atg, etc.


all of those sites are completely useless brochure ware fluff.

A programming language web site does not NEED any graphics whatsoever!
It needs clean plain readable text that is logically and rationally
laid out with obvious textual links, also it needs to be MULTI-LINGUAL
.. . . which pictures and icons are NOT multi-lingual by nature.

> also
> it's designed to project an image to set Python alongside existing
> enterprise programming langagues (apologies for using the e word)


try picking a web site that is useable over the graphical corporate
fluff for the home page.

then put a big obvious link that says, NON-TECHNICAL PEOPLE THAT WANT
PYTHIN INFORMATION CLICK THIS! or some such thing.

Making the default home page corporate contentless brochure-ware fluff
is defiantly the quickest way to drive away the technical people,
without whom Python would not be as popular.

A completely separate brochure-ware Python for non-technical managers
site would be usefull, but making the entire site and the main page
have that function would be counter productive.

here are good useable technical sites
http://www.cetus-links.org/
http://sourceforge.net/
http://firebird.sourceforge.net/
http://www.mozilla.org/

there are many others, but they all have ONE thing in common, CLEAN
UNCLUTTERED CONSISTENT layout of information, and very very very very
few graphics and very very very little fluff.

Anything that does NOT directly convey useful infomration is FLUFF.


> 3) it's an image. Images don't stretch. If I make it any bigger
> it would not fit in 800 wide browsers. A lot of designers make a choice
> between fixed width and fluid. I would probably choose fluid for all
> but the home page however I'm looking at fluid techniques for that too.


then post the HTML that generated the image, learn from your lesson,
don't post screen shots in the future.

> Tim

 
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Graham Fawcett
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      09-08-2003
Y2KYZFR1 wrote:

>"Tim Parkin" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
>
>

[snip]

>
>
>>also
>>it's designed to project an image to set Python alongside existing
>>enterprise programming langagues (apologies for using the e word)
>>
>>

>
>try picking a web site that is useable over the graphical corporate
>fluff for the home page.
>
>then put a big obvious link that says, NON-TECHNICAL PEOPLE THAT WANT
>PYTHIN INFORMATION CLICK THIS! or some such thing.
>
>


Here. I think I've solved the problem once and for all.

Rather than throw stones, I have created a *brand new design* design for
Python.org. I am certain that will satisfy both the technical users and
the suit-wearing investigators. It borrows the time-honoured stylings of
the old Python site, and blends them with some upscale business moxy.

Take a look:

http://tinyurl.com/mlcv

Sorry, there's no comments page. Please send your opinions to the
marketing SIG.

P.S. It's not an image! Feel free to check out my kewl HTML coding
skills. I used CSS and everything.

Yours,

-- Graham



 
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Alan Kennedy
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      09-08-2003
Tim Parkin:
>> 2) The site is designed to reflect the expectations of commercial
>> customers who are used to the likes of peoplesoft and atg, etc.


Y2KYZFR1 wrote:
> all of those sites are completely useless brochure ware fluff.
>
> A programming language web site does not NEED any graphics whatsoever!
> It needs clean plain readable text that is logically and rationally
> laid out with obvious textual links, also it needs to be MULTI-LINGUAL
> . . . which pictures and icons are NOT multi-lingual by nature.


Does this mean we can't have any Monty Python imagery on the page?

If there's going to be images on the home page, we should have one of
a Norwegian Blue, "Pining for the Fjords".

Or better still, CharWoman (aka Queen Elizabeth), swinging on a vine
in front of Buckingham Palace?

Or a tableau of "The Knights who go Nih"?

The possibilities are endless

--
alan kennedy
-----------------------------------------------------
check http headers here: http://xhaus.com/headers
email alan: http://xhaus.com/mailto/alan
 
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Graham Fawcett
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      09-08-2003
Graham Fawcett wrote:

> Here. I think I've solved the problem once and for all.
>
> Rather than throw stones, I have created a *brand new design* design
> for Python.org. I am certain that will satisfy both the technical
> users and the suit-wearing investigators. It borrows the time-honoured
> stylings of the old Python site, and blends them with some upscale
> business moxy.
>
> Take a look:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/mlcv
>
> Sorry, there's no comments page. Please send your opinions to the
> marketing SIG.
>
> P.S. It's not an image! Feel free to check out my kewl HTML coding
> skills. I used CSS and everything.




Lest anyone (else) not catch the humorous intent of my message -- please
DO NOT send your opinions to the marketing SIG. This was intended as a
satirical reply to a c.l.python message -- I don't want to add noise to
the python-marketing list.

-- Graham





 
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Skip Montanaro
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      09-08-2003

>> http://tinyurl.com/mlcv


aahz> Many people, me included, won't follow tinyurl links;

Why?

Skip

 
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Graham Fawcett
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      09-08-2003
Aahz wrote:

>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>Graham Fawcett <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>
>>Rather than throw stones, I have created a *brand new design* design for
>>Python.org. I am certain that will satisfy both the technical users and
>>the suit-wearing investigators. It borrows the time-honoured stylings of
>>the old Python site, and blends them with some upscale business moxy.
>>
>>Take a look:
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/mlcv
>>
>>

>
>Many people, me included, won't follow tinyurl links; please provide a
>standard URL, too.
>
>


Okay. But please understand that my design is a *joke*... should have
added a <wink> in there somewhere.

Do *not* send comments to anyone, esp. the marketing list! I've made my
apologies there already.

http://fawcett.medialab.uwindsor.ca/..._org_redesign/

Thanks for the heads-up re: tinyurl. I realize that some unfriendly folk
may enjoy sending people to goatse or some similarly unsavoury site; I
guess I haven't been burned and have enjoyed the brevity of those URLs.

it-all-seemed-funnier-at-two-in-the-morning'ly yours,

-- Graham



 
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Aahz
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      09-08-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Skip Montanaro <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/mlcv

>
> aahz> Many people, me included, won't follow tinyurl links;
>
>Why?


Because I don't like going to random sites.
--
Aahz ((E-Mail Removed)) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects
with useful practice. --Aahz
 
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