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RE: Python and VS.Net

 
 
Anton Vredegoor
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      07-28-2003
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) topposted:

>1) Both Java and .NET are going to stay and keep competing with each
>other for developers' mindshare.


Yes, it's a problem, I would be better to have a general framework but
initiatives by closed source developers can not provide such a thing.

>2) At present Python 2.3 for Windows is based on VC6. This cannot
>continue for ever. I consider absence of compatability of Python with
>VC7/VS.NET as a major threat for Python's future.


Windows is but a platform among many. IMO now would be the time to
drop VC in favor of mingw or another free compiler with public
sourcecode.

<snip point three and four, no discussion here!>

>5) Even now, it is not easy to convince management about Python's
>adavantages in corporate world. It will be come more difficult, in
>future, if Python.NET is not available.


In Europe there is some initiative to use public source code in
governmental settings. Since the world at large is drifting towards a
knowledge based economy, selling computer programs based on
proprietary sourcecode will not be a feasible alternative anymore some
time in the future.

As a result software industries will have to migrate into service
based billing systems, but the bills will be paid by bills as I will
try to explain below. A service industry can be more efficient the
more it knows about its clients and the industry is already deploying
initiatives towards this goal, see for example the microsoft passport
initiative.

However people seem to get more and more reluctant to provide
information without receiving equal information "value" back because
it's slowly being realized that information is the new money and
industries that do not follow the new information exchange "laws of
nature" will be left behind.

In stark contrast to the old value system that was money based, in the
knowledge based value exchange system one will receive more that will
spend more. The reason for this is that by freely providing
information one enables other information sources to return more
specialized highly valuable information in return, however this value
is also highly personalized. What you want to know is not necessarily
what I want to know. For the moment it is still impossible to make a
computer that thinks better than a human so until that happens humans
will be the producers of the new kind of currency.

Taking these two peculiarities -increasing value return by giving away
value, and highly personalized value production and consuming- it is
clear that only systems that do not cache information or impede
information flow will be the survivors of the new market.

So if one must worry, worry about google compliance instead of about
microsoft compliance Of course google itself will survive only if
it's not going to make the mistake of trying to sell its service for
money or passwords\email adresses\logins\cookies. Google will get
"rich" just by getting to know what you want to know and by freely
providing this knowledge to those who want to know *that* and thereby
getting to know what *those* want to know, enabling them to freely
provide even more information ... etc. A key concept here is not
forcing the user to provide information, but providing information
based on information request.

>6) Ruby users are also taking initiative to make Ruby work with .NET
>framework. Refer http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...adata.dk#link1
>
>I am interested to learn what core python team is thinking about
>compatability of Python 2.x, 3.x with Windows/VC7/VS.NET.


Me too, but this question should probably be asked in the Python
developers mailing list, which according to my analysis above should
be turned into a newsgroup as soon as possible. Also they'd better
answer that they're going to migrate to mingw-compiling soon

Personally I'm still using windows products (w2000 and w9 but I'm
leaning more and more to using Cygwin for Python related tasks, and
unless microsoft is about to make a 180 degree turn in its philosophy
about releasing sourcecode (it has happened before with some company,
see for example netscape) my next OS will probably be Linux or some
other open source thingy.

Anton.
 
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Dave Kuhlman
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      07-29-2003
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:

[snip]
> I was just wondering that if Python has to be compatible to MS.NET
> does it mean
> that
>
> 1) Python should be re-written C# like Jython has been written in
> Java ?
>
> But my bigger concern is about the term "Portability". More than
> OS, it looks like frameworks/VMs (.NET and Java ) are getting more
> dominant today.
>
> So for middleware like Python (though Python script runs on its
> own VM) should be compatible with both the frameworks in order to
> remain practically portable.
>


Of the two frameworks mentioned (MS .Net and Java) we already have
Python in Java. So, before doing Python in/on MS .Net it would be
worthwhile to ask whether Python in Java (Jython) has succeeded.
In order to answer that, we need to specify what we mean by success.

My belief is that Jython has succeeded in producing usable code.

But, is it used? And, does it result in Python being more popular?

Are there projects and project groups out there that had a
requirement to work with Java but chose to do their work in Jython
rather than Java. And, of those that did so, were these projects
successful. Was using Jython a net gain over using Java itself?
Or, eventually, did they re-write all the Python code in Java? Or,
did they wish they had? Or, did they leave behind code that was a
burden to Java developers that came after them? Or, ...

I'd choose Python. But, I'm a Python zealot.

Ask yourself this question: Would a consultant or contractor who
had no ideological commitment to Python (which I do) choose to work
in Jython over Java, and why?

And, if you cannot come up with positive answers to the above
questions (positive for Python/Jython), then why should anyone do
Python in MS .Net?

One additional consideration is that a consultant/contractor can
bill more hours if Java is used than they can if Python/Jython is
used, because development in Java is slower than development in
Python. So, why would the consultant/contractor choose Python over
Java?

I'd like to hear that Jython has been enormously successful at
making in-roads into the Java world, but I'm skeptical.

Oh, and on comp.lang.perl, do you think they worry that Perl will
die if it does not play well in the Java and in the MS .Net worlds?

- Dave

--
Dave Kuhlman
http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman
(E-Mail Removed)
 
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Matt Gerrans
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      07-31-2003
"Dave Kuhlman" wrote:
> Of the two frameworks mentioned (MS .Net and Java) we already have
> Python in Java. So, before doing Python in/on MS .Net it would be
> worthwhile to ask whether Python in Java (Jython) has succeeded.


That's overly simplistic, I think. Whether or not Jython was "a success"
on the JVM has little to do with whether it is worthwhile on the CLR. In
fact, when Guido first began Python proper, I don't think he was too
concerned with whether it would be "a success" -- I think he just wanted to
create a useful tool.

> Ask yourself this question: Would a consultant or contractor who
> had no ideological commitment to Python (which I do) choose to work
> in Jython over Java, and why?


Yes, there are many *pragmatic* reasons to use Python, ideology aside. At
the very least, Jython is a great way to experiment with Java APIs and learn
them quickly.

> One additional consideration is that a consultant/contractor can
> bill more hours if Java is used than they can if Python/Jython is
> used, because development in Java is slower than development in
> Python. So, why would the consultant/contractor choose Python over
> Java?


This is a silly stereotype. Any consultant/contractor who looks at things
this way is a charlatan and should be booted (to the head, no less) at the
earliest opportunity. I have only met one consultant who created such bad
work that it seemed like he was playing the "job security" game -- and after
spending much time trying to disentangle his code, I concluded it was simply
incompetence, not intentional malevolence.

Having been a consultant/contractor for nearly a decade now, I can tell you
that I am always happy to maximize my productivity. There is never any
shortage of work to do, even when you get a project done in half the time
with better than expected quality.

I am working on a .Net project now and if I could do some or all of the code
in Python, I would. Instead, I'm using C#, which I like more than Java,
but less than Python. There are already a wealth of good libraries
available in .Net that would make the Python-on-.Net combination very
effective and useful.

- Matt


 
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