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RE: [OT] sentances with two meanings

 
 
Martin v. Loewis
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      07-17-2003
Alan Kennedy wrote:
> For anybody who has MS Internet Explorer 5+, Netscape 6+, Mozilla 1+,
> i.e. any browser that supports XML, simply save this to a disk file
> and open it in your chosen browser.

[...]

> So, the challenge to the ASCII proponents is: put the greek word
> "gignooskoo" on everybody's screen, originating from a usenet message,
> in the original greek, where "oo" -> greek letter omega.

[...]
> I expect you won't find it as simple as the XML above, although I'm
> also completely prepared to be proven wrong (Alan tries to cover his
> a** in advance .


So what do you think about this message?:

γίγνωσκω

Look Ma, no markup. And not every character uses two bytes, either.
And I can use Umlauts (äöü) and Arabic (ءﺎﻣ.ﺔﻛﺮﺷ) if I want to.

I don't know for whom this renders well, but I guess MSIE5+, NS6+
and Mozilla 1+ are good candidates - without the need for saving
things into files.

Regards,
Martin

 
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Irmen de Jong
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      07-17-2003
Martin v. Loewis wrote:

> γίγνωσκω
>
> Look Ma, no markup. And not every character uses two bytes, either.
> And I can use Umlauts (äöü) and Arabic (ءﺎﻣ.ﺔﻛﺮﺷ) if I want to.
>
> I don't know for whom this renders well, but I guess MSIE5+, NS6+
> and Mozilla 1+ are good candidates - without the need for saving
> things into files.


Exactly, it renders perfectly okay for me (mozilla 1.4).
I wonder one thing: how did you type it in?

--Irmen

 
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Florian Schulze
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      07-17-2003
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:33:38 +0200, Martin v. Loewis <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

> So what do you think about this message?:
>
> γίγνωσκω
>
> Look Ma, no markup. And not every character uses two bytes, either.
> And I can use Umlauts (äöü) and Arabic (ءﺎﻣ.ﺔﻛﺮﺷ) if I want to.
>
> I don't know for whom this renders well, but I guess MSIE5+, NS6+
> and Mozilla 1+ are good candidates - without the need for saving
> things into files.


And Opera (7.11). I would also like to know what's the trick.

Florian
 
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Martin v. Loewis
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      07-17-2003
Irmen de Jong wrote:

> Exactly, it renders perfectly okay for me (mozilla 1.4).
> I wonder one thing: how did you type it in?


The Greek one, I copied from the XML file that Alan sent:
I did as he said. Save file to disk, open it in the browser.
I then copied the characters from one browser window to another.

For the umlauts, I just pressed the relevant characters on
my German keyboard.

For the Arabic, I copied some string from a web page
(the demo page of worldnames.net). Notice that this is
right-to-left, so don't be surprised if your cursor is
on the left end of the text at the end of pasting. Just
pressing the closing parenthesis will switch back to
left-to-right mode.

Regards,
Martin




 
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Aahz
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      07-17-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Martin v. Loewis <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>So what do you think about this message?:
>
>γίγνωσκω


Well, that renders as

........<1/2 symbol>.....o..

in trn3.6 running in a vt100 emulator window, and it renders as

........<1/2 symbol>.~I.~C.o.~I

when I started up vi to follow up (again in the vt100 emulator).
--
Aahz ((E-Mail Removed)) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

A: No.
Q: Is top-posting okay?
 
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Ben Finney
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      07-18-2003
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:53:05 +0100, Alan Kennedy wrote:
> JanC wrote:
>> The verb "gignooskoo" (trying to write it with Latin letters

> Why limit yourself to that nasty little us-ascii alphabet? >


Because it will display reliably on any computer.

> Here it is in a format where almost everybody will be able to see the
> original greek verb on their screen.
> [instructions to cut and paste to a file, then open in a limited range
> of programs, on computers possessing the appropriate font]
>
> So, the challenge to the ASCII proponents is: put the greek word
> "gignooskoo" on everybody's screen, originating from a usenet message,
> in the original greek, where "oo" -> greek letter omega.


Challenge accepted:

Open any drawing program. Draw, in order from left to right, the Greek
characters gamma, ipsilon, gamma, nu, omega, sigma, kappa, omega.

Done. The desired word now appears on the screen.

Oh, what's that -- you say that's cheating because the user has to use
particular programs? Perform manual steps? Have some existing
knowledge about the process? That the process may fail for any of these
reasons?

Those are attributes of the "simple" process of manually manipulating
XML content you gave.

Not every computer is capable of automatically displaying Greek
characters. Even for those which can, there's not yet a universal way
to instruct them to do so. Hence, it is not possible to have any
computer automatically display a word with Greek characters.

But you already knew that, so why the silly challenge?

--
\ "Behind every successful man is a woman, behind her is his |
`\ wife." -- Groucho Marx |
_o__) |
http://bignose.squidly.org/ 9CFE12B0 791A4267 887F520C B7AC2E51 BD41714B
 
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Paul Foley
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      07-18-2003
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:33:38 +0200, Martin v Loewis wrote:

> Alan Kennedy wrote:
>> For anybody who has MS Internet Explorer 5+, Netscape 6+, Mozilla 1+,
>> i.e. any browser that supports XML, simply save this to a disk file
>> and open it in your chosen browser.

> [...]


>> So, the challenge to the ASCII proponents is: put the greek word
>> "gignooskoo" on everybody's screen, originating from a usenet message,
>> in the original greek, where "oo" -> greek letter omega.

> [...]
>> I expect you won't find it as simple as the XML above, although I'm
>> also completely prepared to be proven wrong (Alan tries to cover his
>> a** in advance .


> So what do you think about this message?:


> γίγνωσκω


Works fine, except that it should be γιγνώσκω (I really want U+1F7D
rather than U+03CE for the accented letter, but I can't type that, and
you probably don't have a font with that glyph anyway); but it looks
quite ugly in the font Emacs chooses to display it in.

FWIW, "gignw/skw" is the best way to write it in ASCII (Google even
seems to know betacode, so you can search for "gignw/skw" and find
Greek texts)

> I don't know for whom this renders well, but I guess MSIE5+, NS6+
> and Mozilla 1+ are good candidates - without the need for saving
> things into files.


Add Gnus.

--
Just because we Lisp programmers are better than everyone else is no
excuse for us to be arrogant. -- Erann Gat

(setq reply-to
(concatenate 'string "Paul Foley " "<mycroft" '(#\@) "actrix.gen.nz>"))
 
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Bengt Richter
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      07-18-2003
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:53:05 +0100, Alan Kennedy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>JanC wrote:
>
>> The verb "gignooskoo" (trying to write it with Latin letters

>
>Why limit yourself to that nasty little us-ascii alphabet? >
>
>Here it is in a format where almost everybody will be able to see the
>original greek verb on their screen.
>
>#---------
><?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
><verb>&#x3b3;&#x3af;&#x3b3;&#x3bd;&#x3c9;&#x3c3;& #x3ba;&#x3c9;</verb>
>#---------
>
>For anybody who has MS Internet Explorer 5+, Netscape 6+, Mozilla 1+,
>i.e. any browser that supports XML, simply save this to a disk file
>and open it in your chosen browser.
>

Sorry, that doesn't work for my old browser (NS4.5 Try this:

====< giginooskoo.html >================================================= =====
<html><head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; CHARSET=iso-8859-7">
<style> H1 {font-size: 72pt} </style>
<title>gignooskoo</title></head><body>
<h1>γίγνωσκω</h1>
</body></html>
================================================== ============================

>Of course, I could also have used charset "iso-8859-7", in which case
>the character codes would be one-byte-only. But I don't think that
>would have travelled well over UseNet to most of you.
>

The above seems to work for me. Does it you? Windows-1253 as char set should also work, I think.
(I made the char numeric entities decimal, as some old browsers don't do &#x...
(There's also some unnecessary formatting

Regards,
Bengt Richter
 
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Erik Max Francis
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      07-18-2003
"Martin v. Loewis" wrote:

> So what do you think about this message?:
>
> [non ASCII characters]
>
> Look Ma, no markup.


Yeah, but that only works if everyone's expecting the same encoding. I
just see garbage non-ASCII characters, for instance, with my lowly
Netscape 4 newsreader.

> And not every character uses two bytes, either.


Looked like it was probably was here, I saw what looked very strongly
like eight double-byte characters (and two bytes each).

--
Erik Max Francis && http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
/ \ Wretches hang that jurymen may dine.
\__/ Alexander Pope
 
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Erik Max Francis
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      07-18-2003
Ben Finney wrote:

> I think it looks like a series of identical question marks.
> Presumably
> you wrote it using a character set my terminal isn't using, and you
> had
> no way of instructing my computer to use.


When you see the right number of question marks, that usually means
whatever's processing it knows it's dealing with Unicode, but can't
display the glyphs. So your terminal knows the character set, it just
doesn't have the glyphs in the font it's using.

--
Erik Max Francis && (E-Mail Removed) && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
/ \ Wretches hang that jurymen may dine.
\__/ Alexander Pope
 
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