«

> As you quite rightly say, the issue is somewhere around the first two disk
> sectors, or boot loader, or bootable floppy, or corrupt files etc.. And
> in
> fact implies quite clearly, that THE ISSUE HERE IS (as in the case shown
> by
> Dimetric Houston) to do with one of the above, and in fact,

I'll concede that it is *possible* for a floppy disk to cause the message,
but it's VERY unlikely, in this case. If the floppy was formatted using XP,
or was made bootable with XP, it makes a bootable floppy disk with a
basic DOS OS, that by default, does not install, use, or call upon the
NTLDR,
NTDETECT.COM, or BOOT.INI files for anything. When a system attempts to boot
from such a disk, it will not produce an NTLDR error in any case. If a
typical
bootable floppy with damaged startup files was used, then the error message
would not involve NTLDR,
because that file is not normally even used on a boot floppy created with
XP's boot disk and formatting utility. You can *manually* create a
specialized bootable
floppy disk that uses NTLDR, and thus produce the message that way, by
deliberately leaving off the NTLDR file, or damaging and corrupting it in
some way. This is the only reason Microsoft even lists the floppy disk as a
possible cause for the NTLDR error. But the floppy would have to have been
specifically created with the
appropriate boot configuration in order for the system to even call for the
NTLDR file at all, and the system must call for that file for the error to
even be generated. Yes it is a possibility, but is not in the realm of
likelihood here, and the chances are extremely remote that this is the
actual cause of the OP's problem. Otherwise, any old run-of-the-mill,
non-bootable floppy disk left in
the drive will simply produce "NON SYSTEM DISK or DISK ERROR", and things
will halt there. If you do not believe me, try it out for yourself. Use XP's
floppy formatting tool to create a bootable floppy, and then remove
IO.SYS from it, attempt to boot from it and see what error
message you get (invalid system disk). Or, simply put a blank formatted disk
in the drive and then
try booting from it (non system disk or disk error). Neither with give you
an "NTLDR" is missing error.

You are jumping to wild conclusions. I find your
explanation very convoluted - especially not easily
comprehended by the original poster. So I simplified it. I
eliminated quotes from third parties and lay out how the boot
process works - with error messages quoted exactly. So you
are correct. Some diskettes can output the no NTLDR message.
Others can output Non-system disk message if they were
formatted originally to boot a DOS (Windows 9x) system. But
read more carefully.

I demonstrated in simple terms how a diskette in the system
could cause a no NTLDR message - as you claim.

Point is - where does each error message come from. And so
I simplified it. I provided exact text that can come from
each part of the booting process. I made no conclusions to
what anyone said. Instead I cut through all the posts and
stated exactly where each error message comes from.

Now from basic facts posted previously (without
conclusions), I now do the thinking for you. Dimetric says
his error message is "NTLDR is missing. Ctrl+Alt+Del to
restart". I do not find that error message in any two sector
boot program. I find either of these message:
DOS formatted disk:
Non-System disk or disk error
Replace and press any key when ready
NT formatted disk:
BOOT: Couldn't find NTLDR

So where does Dimetric's message come from? Does it come
from the BIOS? What is left?

No, I did not ask nor answer that question. I simply posted
straight facts without analysis. Please read more carefully.
I expect others to use these facts to build conclusions such
as: Dimetric's error message does not come from the boot
sector program.

Furthermore, your answers do not tell Dimetric how the
booting process operates. Therefore you only confuse him.
Posted also for his benefit was how booting occurs without him
expecting to understand the many fancy buzz words you posted.
Words such as POST used without defining them.

It's really quite simple. The error message that Dimetric
posted is not same as error message from boot sector program.
Please explain the contradiction. A question I did not bother
to ask previously because I assumed you would read more
carefully.

"L;ozT" wrote:
> I appolgise for sounding rude, but may I ask, do you actually
> fully understand the content of what you posted, or have I
> mis-interpreted your reason for posting?
>
> ....ok. So the BIOS is involved in booting up a computer full stop.
>
> Absolutely.
>
> What I meant when I said:
>
> <quote>
> 'And the issue here is nothing whatsoever to do with the BIOS.'
> <end quote>
>
> is not that booting up a computer, regardless of operating system
> or fault, does not rely on the BIOS. What I did say, I thought
> resonably clearly, is that the problem being had by Dimetric
> Houston, is in no way related to a problem with the bios. (ie
> the ISSUE HERE is nothing whatsoever to do with the BIOS). The
> BIOS, from the fact that it was able, after running through
> POST's, to 'execute a program in the first two disk sectors',
> which in turn was able to produce valid error message, would
> appear to be perfectly fine, and to have no issues.
>
> As you quite rightly say, the issue is somewhere around the
> first two disk sectors, or boot loader, or bootable floppy,
> or corrupt files etc.. And in fact implies quite clearly,
> that THE ISSUE HERE IS (as in the case shown by Dimetric
> Houston) to do with one of the above, and in fact, NOTHING
> WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE BIOS. And so, the statement 'Right.
> Your bios has no clue re: OS messages' is not only in support
> of an incorrect statement, but also is completely irrelevant,
> and is also wrong in it's implication, as it implies that
> the message seen on screen (relating to NT Loader) is a BIOS
> message, when as you quite rightly quote <quote> Above are
> the Microsoft error messages from the boot sector program.
> <end quote> the
> message seen, is in fact, you guessed it, NOTHING
> WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE BIOS!
>
> I can see you are perhaps intelligent and well read, but
> perhaps you need to read more carefully, and then think more
> about the implications of what you have read, as I believe
> you have misunderstood the statement made by myself in my
> previous post, and appear to have misunderstood the
> implications of your own post.
>
> Cheers.
>
> L;ozT.............again!

.....I can respect that, and agree that it may be unlikely even, but as my
original post said <quote> ...or maybe, just maybe, there is already a
floppy disk etc.....<end quote>, which as it suggest, is a 'maybe, just
maybe' possibility, one which had not yet come up in the thread, and was
simply meant to help someone, offering what may have been a simple solution.
And even if it is completely wrong, it takes approximately 2 seconds to
glance at the floppy drive and see if there is anything in it, the person
checking needs little to no experience of even using a computer, and the
computer doesn't even need to be turned on, so it couldn't hurt to glance.
It was only a suggestion afterall.

And anyway, no-where do I firmly state that it is the floppy disk, I merely
offer this as one suggestion, I suggest (at least a few times) that <quote>
the issue is somewhere around the first two disk sectors, or boot loader, or
bootable floppy, or corrupt files etc <end quote>, making it quite clear
that I think it could just as easily be one of a number of things causing
the problem.

But then still, my point remains, that in this instance, ie, Dimetric
Houston's problem regarding his PC not booting up, is not related to the
BIOS, and is in fact related in some way to hard disk/floppy disk/OS.

Cheers

L;ozT.............and tired!

"Thor" <> wrote in message
news:...
> > As you quite rightly say, the issue is somewhere around the first two
disk
> > sectors, or boot loader, or bootable floppy, or corrupt files etc.. And
> > in
> > fact implies quite clearly, that THE ISSUE HERE IS (as in the case shown
> > by
> > Dimetric Houston) to do with one of the above, and in fact,
>
> I'll concede that it is *possible* for a floppy disk to cause the message,
> but it's VERY unlikely, in this case. If the floppy was formatted using
XP,
> or was made bootable with XP, it makes a bootable floppy disk with a
> basic DOS OS, that by default, does not install, use, or call upon the
> NTLDR,
> NTDETECT.COM, or BOOT.INI files for anything. When a system attempts to
boot
> from such a disk, it will not produce an NTLDR error in any case. If a
> typical
> bootable floppy with damaged startup files was used, then the error
message
> would not involve NTLDR,
> because that file is not normally even used on a boot floppy created with
> XP's boot disk and formatting utility. You can *manually* create a
> specialized bootable
> floppy disk that uses NTLDR, and thus produce the message that way, by
> deliberately leaving off the NTLDR file, or damaging and corrupting it in
> some way. This is the only reason Microsoft even lists the floppy disk as
a
> possible cause for the NTLDR error. But the floppy would have to have been
> specifically created with the
> appropriate boot configuration in order for the system to even call for
the
> NTLDR file at all, and the system must call for that file for the error to
> even be generated. Yes it is a possibility, but is not in the realm of
> likelihood here, and the chances are extremely remote that this is the
> actual cause of the OP's problem. Otherwise, any old run-of-the-mill,
> non-bootable floppy disk left in
> the drive will simply produce "NON SYSTEM DISK or DISK ERROR", and things
> will halt there. If you do not believe me, try it out for yourself. Use
XP's
> floppy formatting tool to create a bootable floppy, and then remove
> IO.SYS from it, attempt to boot from it and see what error
> message you get (invalid system disk). Or, simply put a blank formatted
disk
> in the drive and then
> try booting from it (non system disk or disk error). Neither with give you
> an "NTLDR" is missing error.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hello again.

I didn't mean to offend you personally, I perhaps misunderstood your reason
for posting.

Just to answer some of your points below though:

My original post, just a suggestion, was aimed at the original poster, and
was nice and simple to understand. I appreciate that it is unlikely (as
mentioned in previous post), but is still a possibility and still only a
suggestion. The following posts (the slightly more technical ones) were not
particularly aimed at the original poster, but in fact at the 'experts' who
followed this post.

As I said in the very first instance though, maybe, just maybe. If you
check out the link supplied by Mark Mandel, you will see quite clearly that
I am not alone in thinking a non-bootable floppy present in a drive, may
cause the error as seen by the original poster. So much so in fact, that it
is listed as the first possible option and thing to check (Please have a
look at .www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000465.htm and check out point
number 1, the first thing it suggests). We might both be completely wrong
and no nothing, but we are really, deep down in our hearts, trying to help!

Anyway, this is all getting a little heated, and really, I only wanted to
maybe help someone and offer a suggestion.

Come on guys. What happened to Free Love and all that hippy stuff. Surely
we're here to help each other.

Sorry if I dissed anyone.

L;ozT .......... in a can of worms!


"w_tom" <> wrote in message
news:...
> You are jumping to wild conclusions. I find your
> explanation very convoluted - especially not easily
> comprehended by the original poster. So I simplified it. I
> eliminated quotes from third parties and lay out how the boot
> process works - with error messages quoted exactly. So you
> are correct. Some diskettes can output the no NTLDR message.
> Others can output Non-system disk message if they were
> formatted originally to boot a DOS (Windows 9x) system. But
> read more carefully.
>
> I demonstrated in simple terms how a diskette in the system
> could cause a no NTLDR message - as you claim.
>
> Point is - where does each error message come from. And so
> I simplified it. I provided exact text that can come from
> each part of the booting process. I made no conclusions to
> what anyone said. Instead I cut through all the posts and
> stated exactly where each error message comes from.
>
> Now from basic facts posted previously (without
> conclusions), I now do the thinking for you. Dimetric says
> his error message is "NTLDR is missing. Ctrl+Alt+Del to
> restart". I do not find that error message in any two sector
> boot program. I find either of these message:
> DOS formatted disk:
> Non-System disk or disk error
> Replace and press any key when ready
> NT formatted disk:
> BOOT: Couldn't find NTLDR
>
> So where does Dimetric's message come from? Does it come
> from the BIOS? What is left?
>
> No, I did not ask nor answer that question. I simply posted
> straight facts without analysis. Please read more carefully.
> I expect others to use these facts to build conclusions such
> as: Dimetric's error message does not come from the boot
> sector program.
>
> Furthermore, your answers do not tell Dimetric how the
> booting process operates. Therefore you only confuse him.
> Posted also for his benefit was how booting occurs without him
> expecting to understand the many fancy buzz words you posted.
> Words such as POST used without defining them.
>
> It's really quite simple. The error message that Dimetric
> posted is not same as error message from boot sector program.
> Please explain the contradiction. A question I did not bother
> to ask previously because I assumed you would read more
> carefully.
>
> "L;ozT" wrote:
> > I appolgise for sounding rude, but may I ask, do you actually
> > fully understand the content of what you posted, or have I
> > mis-interpreted your reason for posting?
> >
> > ....ok. So the BIOS is involved in booting up a computer full stop.
> >
> > Absolutely.
> >
> > What I meant when I said:
> >
> > <quote>
> > 'And the issue here is nothing whatsoever to do with the BIOS.'
> > <end quote>
> >
> > is not that booting up a computer, regardless of operating system
> > or fault, does not rely on the BIOS. What I did say, I thought
> > resonably clearly, is that the problem being had by Dimetric
> > Houston, is in no way related to a problem with the bios. (ie
> > the ISSUE HERE is nothing whatsoever to do with the BIOS). The
> > BIOS, from the fact that it was able, after running through
> > POST's, to 'execute a program in the first two disk sectors',
> > which in turn was able to produce valid error message, would
> > appear to be perfectly fine, and to have no issues.
> >
> > As you quite rightly say, the issue is somewhere around the
> > first two disk sectors, or boot loader, or bootable floppy,
> > or corrupt files etc.. And in fact implies quite clearly,
> > that THE ISSUE HERE IS (as in the case shown by Dimetric
> > Houston) to do with one of the above, and in fact, NOTHING
> > WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE BIOS. And so, the statement 'Right.
> > Your bios has no clue re: OS messages' is not only in support
> > of an incorrect statement, but also is completely irrelevant,
> > and is also wrong in it's implication, as it implies that
> > the message seen on screen (relating to NT Loader) is a BIOS
> > message, when as you quite rightly quote <quote> Above are
> > the Microsoft error messages from the boot sector program.
> > <end quote> the
> > message seen, is in fact, you guessed it, NOTHING
> > WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE BIOS!
> >
> > I can see you are perhaps intelligent and well read, but
> > perhaps you need to read more carefully, and then think more
> > about the implications of what you have read, as I believe
> > you have misunderstood the statement made by myself in my
> > previous post, and appear to have misunderstood the
> > implications of your own post.
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > L;ozT.............again!

>
> Come on guys. What happened to Free Love and all that hippy stuff.
> Surely
> we're here to help each other.

Peace!

....and respect....... ;o)

"Thor" <> wrote in message
news:...
> >
> > Come on guys. What happened to Free Love and all that hippy stuff.
> > Surely
> > we're here to help each other.
>
> Peace!
>
>
>

The devil is in the details. The OP has a message that
reads:
NTLDR is missing. Ctrl+Alt+Del to restart

Where does this message come from? Therein says why this
problem occurs. Since a Boot Sector program is suppose to
find and execute NTLDR, then nothing executed after the Boot
Sector program(s) should create this message. Since this
message is not found in any Boot Sector program I have seen,
then there remains only one other place this message can come
from.

If the BIOS is a source of this message, then the BIOS must
contain messages unique to using this computer with XP. I
find that message from a BIOS rather unusual. However given
that this error message can only come from the BIOS (the
program that first executes when computer is powered on) or a
boot sector program, then the unreasonable option appears to
be the only possibility left.

IOW if BIOS looked at all disks and did not even find a boot
sector program on any disk. Therefore BIOS would be source
of this "NTLDR is missing..." message. Maybe this failure is
not even due to a missing NTLDR file as the error message
suggests.

Unfortunately, the OP must supply further information for
this analysis to continue - or others must find this error
message (NTLDR is missing...) in the boot sector of newer XP
formatted disks.

Where does the message "NTLDR is missing..." come from.
Answer that question and we have have sufficient information
to say exactly where the original failure is located.

The Mark Mandel post in computerhope.com is nothing more
than a laundry list of possible reasons. From his post, one
could easily speculate that the NTLDR file did not find a
BOOT.INI file and therefore NTLDR is the source of "NTLDR is
missing..." (his Item 4). Or that the BIOS contains the
"NTLDR is missing..." message (his Item 2, 7 , & 9).

Again the devil is in the detail. Where does that message
come from? That determines where the problem exists.

"L;ozT" wrote:
> Hello again.
>
> I didn't mean to offend you personally, I perhaps misunderstood
> your reason for posting.
>
> Just to answer some of your points below though:
>
> My original post, just a suggestion, was aimed at the original
> poster, and was nice and simple to understand. I appreciate
> that it is unlikely (as mentioned in previous post), but is
> still a possibility and still only a suggestion. The following
> posts (the slightly more technical ones) were not particularly
> aimed at the original poster, but in fact at the 'experts' who
> followed this post.
>
> As I said in the very first instance though, maybe, just maybe.
> If you check out the link supplied by Mark Mandel, you will see
> quite clearly that I am not alone in thinking a non-bootable
> floppy present in a drive, may cause the error as seen by the
> original poster. So much so in fact, that it is listed as the
> first possible option and thing to check (Please have a look
> at .www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000465.htm and check out
> point number 1, the first thing it suggests). We might both be
> completely wrong and no nothing, but we are really, deep down
> in our hearts, trying to help!
>
> Anyway, this is all getting a little heated, and really, I
> only wanted to maybe help someone and offer a suggestion.
>
> Come on guys. What happened to Free Love and all that hippy
> stuff. Surely we're here to help each other.
>
> Sorry if I dissed anyone.
>
> L;ozT .......... in a can of worms!

L;ozT wrote:
>
> I appolgise for sounding rude, but may I ask, do you actually fully
> understand the content of what you posted, or have I mis-interpreted your
> reason for posting?


"NTLDR is missing. Ctrl+Alt+Del to restart"

There a few types of "bootdisks". The more common is the dos bootdisk
which gets you into some version of dos. The second type of bootdisk is
really a "startup" disk. ie you can make one for XP that will start XP
that you may use if certain startup files are missing from C: You have
to have had to make one in advance of your XP messing up tho.

Perhaps that is the reason for the misunderstanding as yes, an XP
"startup disk" that's bad can indeed give you the above message as XP is
really trying to start. So the message comes from a Windows file, not
from the bios.

Yes it is a given that a floppy would be source of that
message. But that means the Boot Sector program (on first two
sectors of that floppy) would have to contain the message:
NTLDR is missing. Ctrl+Alt+Del to restart

As noted previously, bootable floppies for NT contain a
message that read:
Non-System disk or disk error
Replace and press any key when ready or

BOOT: Couldn't find NTLDR

If that is the case - if that message is the result of
system trying to boot from a formatted floppy, then we have
all learned that XP is using a new Boot Sector program.

Again, this is more information that we await from Dimetric
or from others.

"L;ozT" wrote:
> ....I can respect that, and agree that it may be unlikely even,
> but as my original post said <quote> ...or maybe, just maybe,
> there is already a floppy disk etc.....<end quote>, which as
> it suggest, is a 'maybe, just maybe' possibility, one which
> had not yet come up in the thread, and was simply meant to help
> someone, offering what may have been a simple solution.
> And even if it is completely wrong, it takes approximately 2
> seconds to glance at the floppy drive and see if there is
> anything in it, the person checking needs little to no
> experience of even using a computer, and the computer doesn't
> even need to be turned on, so it couldn't hurt to glance.
> It was only a suggestion afterall.
>
> And anyway, no-where do I firmly state that it is the floppy
> disk, I merely offer this as one suggestion, I suggest (at
> least a few times) that <quote> the issue is somewhere around
> the first two disk sectors, or boot loader, or bootable
> floppy, or corrupt files etc <end quote>, making it quite
> clear that I think it could just as easily be one of a number
> of things causing the problem.
>
> But then still, my point remains, that in this instance, ie,
> Dimetric Houston's problem regarding his PC not booting up,
> is not related to the BIOS, and is in fact related in some
> way to hard disk/floppy disk/OS.
>
> Cheers
>
> L;ozT.............and tired!

I wonder why we did not see this message before NT came out?

Its safe to say that it is not in the bios.

PC boot procedure:-

POST
Check disk hardware.
Load first sector of boot device into memory.
Execute the code just loaded.

NTLDR is missing comes from the program the is on the first sector of the
device that the bios 'tried' to boot from.

I have seen this many times when a floppy was left in a machine when the unit
was turned off, I have even done it to myself.

Derek

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:35:55 -0400, w_tom <> wrote:

> The devil is in the details. The OP has a message that
>reads:
> NTLDR is missing. Ctrl+Alt+Del to restart
>
> Where does this message come from? Therein says why this
>problem occurs. Since a Boot Sector program is suppose to
>find and execute NTLDR, then nothing executed after the Boot
>Sector program(s) should create this message. Since this
>message is not found in any Boot Sector program I have seen,
>then there remains only one other place this message can come
>from.
>
> If the BIOS is a source of this message, then the BIOS must
>contain messages unique to using this computer with XP. I
>find that message from a BIOS rather unusual. However given
>that this error message can only come from the BIOS (the
>program that first executes when computer is powered on) or a
>boot sector program, then the unreasonable option appears to
>be the only possibility left.
>
> IOW if BIOS looked at all disks and did not even find a boot
>sector program on any disk. Therefore BIOS would be source
>of this "NTLDR is missing..." message. Maybe this failure is
>not even due to a missing NTLDR file as the error message
>suggests.
>
> Unfortunately, the OP must supply further information for
>this analysis to continue - or others must find this error
>message (NTLDR is missing...) in the boot sector of newer XP
>formatted disks.
>
> Where does the message "NTLDR is missing..." come from.
>Answer that question and we have have sufficient information
>to say exactly where the original failure is located.
>
> The Mark Mandel post in computerhope.com is nothing more
>than a laundry list of possible reasons. From his post, one
>could easily speculate that the NTLDR file did not find a
>BOOT.INI file and therefore NTLDR is the source of "NTLDR is
>missing..." (his Item 4). Or that the BIOS contains the
>"NTLDR is missing..." message (his Item 2, 7 , & 9).
>
> Again the devil is in the detail. Where does that message
>come from? That determines where the problem exists.
>
>"L;ozT" wrote:
>> Hello again.
>>
>> I didn't mean to offend you personally, I perhaps misunderstood
>> your reason for posting.
>>
>> Just to answer some of your points below though:
>>
>> My original post, just a suggestion, was aimed at the original
>> poster, and was nice and simple to understand. I appreciate
>> that it is unlikely (as mentioned in previous post), but is
>> still a possibility and still only a suggestion. The following
>> posts (the slightly more technical ones) were not particularly
>> aimed at the original poster, but in fact at the 'experts' who
>> followed this post.
>>
>> As I said in the very first instance though, maybe, just maybe.
>> If you check out the link supplied by Mark Mandel, you will see
>> quite clearly that I am not alone in thinking a non-bootable
>> floppy present in a drive, may cause the error as seen by the
>> original poster. So much so in fact, that it is listed as the
>> first possible option and thing to check (Please have a look
>> at .www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000465.htm and check out
>> point number 1, the first thing it suggests). We might both be
>> completely wrong and no nothing, but we are really, deep down
>> in our hearts, trying to help!
>>
>> Anyway, this is all getting a little heated, and really, I
>> only wanted to maybe help someone and offer a suggestion.
>>
>> Come on guys. What happened to Free Love and all that hippy
>> stuff. Surely we're here to help each other.
>>
>> Sorry if I dissed anyone.
>>
>> L;ozT .......... in a can of worms!