«

"Thor" <> wrote in message
news:...
> >
> > Bottom line Thor, plastic housing electronic components have caused
many,
> > many fires and many lives have been lost. Don't you recall how many
fires
> > were started by the early "instant on" TV's? Standard PC housings have
no
> > such hazard due to design. I for one would not want a 10" x 10" piece of
> > Plexiglas and rubber gasket exposed to a potential fire. Plexiglas burns
> > readily and produces a good deal of combustion byproducts, namely smoke
> and
> > fumes.
> >
> > You can find no such links for PC fire hazards but I believe that will
> > change with recent addition of massive plastic housings and plastic side
> > panels to PC's.
> > I for one want no part of such enclosures.
>
> It falls under the realm of acceptable risk for most reasonable people.
I'm
> not a bit worried about the plethora of plastic-encased electronic
products
> in my home, nor do I live in mortal fear of my plexiglass PC side window.
I
> think your paranoia of plastic is way out of proportion to the actual
> likelihood of a problem that would involve a fire.

I think you have a problem when you characterize _concern_ with placing a
highly combustible material in an electronic component housing as "paranoia"
and "mortal fear." When you're presented with an opposing viewpoint, a
hyperbolic exaggeration of dissenter's position is your typical pavlovion
response, especially so in this case when all the examples you brought in to
support your argument have experienced the same hazard I am concerned with,
namely the combustion of the housing itself. If you feel comfortable going
out of your house and leaving a PC that has a massive plastic housing and
Plexiglas side panels running unattended, be my guest. I leave my standard
enclosed PC's running unattended for days and sometimes weeks at a time with
the utmost confidence, merely switching off the plastic encased monitor, as
is good practice _because_ of it's plastic housing and ability to combust.

> I think you have a problem when you characterize _concern_ with placing a
> highly combustible material in an electronic component housing as
"paranoia"
> and "mortal fear." When you're presented with an opposing viewpoint, a
> hyperbolic exaggeration of dissenter's position is your typical pavlovion

I just believe you are putting entirely too much emphasis on something that
is truly inconsequential in the big picture. The risk of a PC experiencing a
catastrophic failure that results in an internal fire is extremely low to
begin with, just as it is with most other consumer electronic items. The
links you cited were all very isolated examples, and not indicative of the
whole field of the products cited, and the real-world fire risk they have. I
would surmise that nearly every electronic entertainment product you own is
encased in, surrounded by, and positively dripping with plastic. Do you run
around your home and unplug every one of these things every time you leave
the house? That is not a hyperbolic question. Because if you feel so
strongly enough about plexiglass side panels in PCs that you feel compelled
to comment against them here on more than one occasion, and state "I will
never use case mods such as lights and Plexiglas side panels as they only
add consumable mass", and furthermore state that you always shut off main
power to your monitor because of the fire risk you attribute to them, then
you must really be worried about all the consumable mass present in all the
other electronic products you own, that are still technically "powered" even
when their power switches are in the "off" position. Pursuing your thinking
to it's consistent and logical end, that amount of "concern" of fire risk
would dictate that you remove power from all these devices as well, because
they all present that risk. My statements might seem hyperbolic to you, but
they are meant to shed light upon what I believe is an overemphasis on the
actual fire risk in a PC. Most monitors and TVs and other electronic
entertainment devices these days, do not have a full mains cutoff switch,
leaving the only option to leave the unit in a "standby" mode, in which some
circuitry is still powered. Yet, peoples homes aren't burning down in an
epidemic of appliance-initiated fires. Are you prepared to tell people that
they should pull the AC cord from their monitors, television sets, VCRs, DVD
players, Stereo systems, Playstations, Xboxes, Gamecubes, TIVOs, Satellite
receivers, etc every time they leave their homes? If you do not do this in
your own house (and I would assume you aren't THAT paranoid) then why all
the emphasis on PCs and that demon of all construction materials, plastic?
PCs are, for the most part, no different than most other consumer electronic
items, and with products like Xbox and TIVO, the line between PCs and other
electronic entertainment products gets blurrier every day. The risk is the
same, and logic dictates that they should be treated as such. So the
question really begs, Michael, is your "concern" over plastic so serious
that you apply the same logic accross the board for all your electronic
gadgets, doohickies, whatsits, and thingamabobs, as you do your PC, and yank
all their power cords out whenever they aren't actually being used? If you
don't, then you have a problem with consistency in the application of your
logic.

You want hyperbole? You're car is full of plastic, has a high-current
battery, yards of live wiring, a tank full of gasoline, and some other
highly flammable liquids. It's a ticking timebomb. Better go out and drain
that tank, and unhook the battery cables so you can sleep at night. Reply as
you wish. I won't bother arguing this issue further. Suffice it to say, I
think you are an alright guy, but I think you are just a little nutty about
this issue. No hard feelings there, fire marhsall Bill?

Michael-NC wrote:

> "Thor" <> wrote in message
> news:...
>
>>>Bottom line Thor, plastic housing electronic components have caused
>
> many,
>
>>>many fires and many lives have been lost. Don't you recall how many
>
> fires
>
>>>were started by the early "instant on" TV's? Standard PC housings have
>
> no
>
>>>such hazard due to design. I for one would not want a 10" x 10" piece of
>>>Plexiglas and rubber gasket exposed to a potential fire. Plexiglas burns
>>>readily and produces a good deal of combustion byproducts, namely smoke
>>
>>and
>>
>>>fumes.
>>>
>>>You can find no such links for PC fire hazards but I believe that will
>>>change with recent addition of massive plastic housings and plastic side
>>>panels to PC's.
>>>I for one want no part of such enclosures.
>>
>>It falls under the realm of acceptable risk for most reasonable people.
>
> I'm
>
>>not a bit worried about the plethora of plastic-encased electronic
>
> products
>
>>in my home, nor do I live in mortal fear of my plexiglass PC side window.
>
> I
>
>>think your paranoia of plastic is way out of proportion to the actual
>>likelihood of a problem that would involve a fire.
>
>
> I think you have a problem when you characterize _concern_ with placing a
> highly combustible material in an electronic component housing as "paranoia"
> and "mortal fear." When you're presented with an opposing viewpoint, a
> hyperbolic exaggeration of dissenter's position is your typical pavlovion
> response, especially so in this case when all the examples you brought in to
> support your argument have experienced the same hazard I am concerned with,
> namely the combustion of the housing itself. If you feel comfortable going
> out of your house and leaving a PC that has a massive plastic housing and
> Plexiglas side panels running unattended, be my guest. I leave my standard
> enclosed PC's running unattended for days and sometimes weeks at a time with
> the utmost confidence, merely switching off the plastic encased monitor, as
> is good practice _because_ of it's plastic housing and ability to combust.

If you're really worried you can go to your main electrical panel and
turn off the main breaker. Of course your alarmn clock, (plastic case),
will not wake you and your air conditioner, (many plastic components),
will leave you very hot. Don't use your plastic cased toaster for
breakfast, and be sure not to use the microwave.

I do agree with turning off things, (plastic case or not), that are not
in use. Your water heater is far more likely to cause a fire than any
"plastic case", but I don't want to turn it off.

If you think Thor's response denegrates your paranoia, so be it.
Keep drooling when you hear Pavlov's bell!

Hyperbolic exagerations represent only this respondant opinions. ;-

Virg Wall
--
A foolish consistency is the
hobgoblin of little minds,........
Ralph Waldo Emerson
(Microsoft programmer's manual.)

"VWWall" <> wrote in message
news:f0unc.13388$ link.net...
> Michael-NC wrote:
>
> > "Thor" <> wrote in message
> > news:...
> >
> >>>Bottom line Thor, plastic housing electronic components have caused
> >
> > many,
> >
> >>>many fires and many lives have been lost. Don't you recall how many
> >
> > fires
> >
> >>>were started by the early "instant on" TV's? Standard PC housings have
> >
> > no
> >
> >>>such hazard due to design. I for one would not want a 10" x 10" piece
of
> >>>Plexiglas and rubber gasket exposed to a potential fire. Plexiglas
burns
> >>>readily and produces a good deal of combustion byproducts, namely smoke
> >>
> >>and
> >>
> >>>fumes.
> >>>
> >>>You can find no such links for PC fire hazards but I believe that will
> >>>change with recent addition of massive plastic housings and plastic
side
> >>>panels to PC's.
> >>>I for one want no part of such enclosures.
> >>
> >>It falls under the realm of acceptable risk for most reasonable people.
> >
> > I'm
> >
> >>not a bit worried about the plethora of plastic-encased electronic
> >
> > products
> >
> >>in my home, nor do I live in mortal fear of my plexiglass PC side
window.
> >
> > I
> >
> >>think your paranoia of plastic is way out of proportion to the actual
> >>likelihood of a problem that would involve a fire.
> >
> >
> > I think you have a problem when you characterize _concern_ with placing
a
> > highly combustible material in an electronic component housing as
"paranoia"
> > and "mortal fear." When you're presented with an opposing viewpoint, a
> > hyperbolic exaggeration of dissenter's position is your typical
pavlovion
> > response, especially so in this case when all the examples you brought
in to
> > support your argument have experienced the same hazard I am concerned
with,
> > namely the combustion of the housing itself. If you feel comfortable
going
> > out of your house and leaving a PC that has a massive plastic housing
and
> > Plexiglas side panels running unattended, be my guest. I leave my
standard
> > enclosed PC's running unattended for days and sometimes weeks at a time
with
> > the utmost confidence, merely switching off the plastic encased monitor,
as
> > is good practice _because_ of it's plastic housing and ability to
combust.
>
> If you're really worried you can go to your main electrical panel and
> turn off the main breaker.

Oh gee, more words of wisdom...

>Of course your alarmn clock, (plastic case),
> will not wake you and your air conditioner, (many plastic components),
> will leave you very hot. Don't use your plastic cased toaster for
> breakfast, and be sure not to use the microwave.

FYI, I have central air and there is no major plastic components in the
unit. My toaster oven is metal cased, as well as the overhead micro. If you
want to deny that plastic cased appliances have never caused fire injury and
death, be my guest.

> I do agree with turning off things, (plastic case or not), that are not
> in use. Your water heater is far more likely to cause a fire than any
> "plastic case", but I don't want to turn it off.

A properly installed and operated water heater poses no danger.

> If you think Thor's response denegrates your paranoia, so be it.
> Keep drooling when you hear Pavlov's bell!

I fail to grasp the context of what I guess is supposed to a humorous
statement.

> Hyperbolic exagerations represent only this respondant opinions. ;-
>
> Virg Wall

Go take a nap Virge.

"Thor" <> wrote in message
news:...
> > I think you have a problem when you characterize _concern_ with placing
a
> > highly combustible material in an electronic component housing as
> "paranoia"
> > and "mortal fear." When you're presented with an opposing viewpoint, a
> > hyperbolic exaggeration of dissenter's position is your typical
pavlovion
>
> I just believe you are putting entirely too much emphasis on something
that
> is truly inconsequential in the big picture.

That's what _you_ feel. I merely stated that *I* will never use these
plastic side panels and other plastic doodads in a PC. You then picked up on
some perceived paranoia and mortal fear on my part. If I tell you I'll never
jump off a bridge, I'll have a mortal fear of bridges, according to your
logic...

>The risk of a PC experiencing a
> catastrophic failure that results in an internal fire is extremely low to
> begin with, just as it is with most other consumer electronic items.

IMO, the very reason you can't find any evidence of a serious PC fire hazard
is due to their metal encased construction. Had PC's been shipping in
plastic enclosures, I'm sure there would have been many examples of PC fires
and subsequent property damage and serious injuries.

>The
> links you cited were all very isolated examples, and not indicative of the
> whole field of the products cited, and the real-world fire risk they have.

I disagree, there are many, numerous examples of appliance fires and by
context, none for the PC, for exactly the reasons I stated earlier.

>I
> would surmise that nearly every electronic entertainment product you own
is
> encased in, surrounded by, and positively dripping with plastic.

That's just not so. Both DVD players I own are metal encased, as is my
stereo. All the VCR's are metal cased as well, save for the plastic fascia,
similar to a plastic front bezel on a PC.

>Do you run
> around your home and unplug every one of these things every time you leave
> the house? That is not a hyperbolic question. Because if you feel so
> strongly enough about plexiglass side panels in PCs that you feel
compelled
> to comment against them here on more than one occasion, and state "I will
> never use case mods such as lights and Plexiglas side panels as they only
> add consumable mass", and furthermore state that you always shut off main
> power to your monitor because of the fire risk you attribute to them, then
> you must really be worried about all the consumable mass present in all
the
> other electronic products you own, that are still technically "powered"
even
> when their power switches are in the "off" position. Pursuing your
thinking
> to it's consistent and logical end, that amount of "concern" of fire risk
> would dictate that you remove power from all these devices as well,
because
> they all present that risk. My statements might seem hyperbolic to you,
but
> they are meant to shed light upon what I believe is an overemphasis on the
> actual fire risk in a PC.

You choose to characterize my concern as paranoia for whatever reason, I do
not characterize it that way. It's my decision to not alter what I consider
a very safe design. It's my decision not to install combustible side panels
to a device that has the potential for a fire. It's the same reasoning I use
when making purchasing decisions based upon sound reviews and UL listings,
making sure the wiring system in my home is safe, having fire extinguishers
available, having smoke and C02 detectors, as well as a plan in place in
case of fire. There is a home fire death every 170 minutes or so in the US.
While this has nothing to do with the PC, it's my preference to not add
combustible components into the equation.

>Most monitors and TVs and other electronic
> entertainment devices these days, do not have a full mains cutoff switch,
> leaving the only option to leave the unit in a "standby" mode, in which
some
> circuitry is still powered.

I'm really not interested in discussing the fire hazard of every single
appliance in the home. I stated my view on mitigating one single perceived
risk, period. Everyone can think about mitigating risks or not. You could
buckle your seat belt or not. You can choose to lessen any perceived hazard
in your home or not and I don't believe that falls into the paranoia
department.

>Yet, peoples homes aren't burning down in an
> epidemic of appliance-initiated fires.

Around 390,000 reported home fires a year is nothing to sneeze at. Most are
caused by smoking, heating equipment or cooking. Faulty appliances are but a
minor contributing factor and I never said that they were. You continue to
attribute outlandish theories and scenarios to support your argument and I
suggest they are out of context to statement of never wanting to put
Plexiglas side panels in my PCs.

>Are you prepared to tell people that
> they should pull the AC cord from their monitors, television sets, VCRs,
DVD
> players, Stereo systems, Playstations, Xboxes, Gamecubes, TIVOs, Satellite
> receivers, etc every time they leave their homes?

See my comment above. However, it is accepted wisdom and advised that people
do unplug certain appliances when leaving the home for extended periods of
time.

>If you do not do this in
> your own house (and I would assume you aren't THAT paranoid) then why all
> the emphasis on PCs and that demon of all construction materials, plastic?

Why all the emphasis? Because I was replying to a thread with the exact same
topic, that's why. Does that make sense to you? I stated an opinion and you
started the paranoia bullshit.

> PCs are, for the most part, no different than most other consumer
electronic
> items, and with products like Xbox and TIVO, the line between PCs and
other
> electronic entertainment products gets blurrier every day. The risk is the
> same, and logic dictates that they should be treated as such. So the
> question really begs, Michael, is your "concern" over plastic so serious
> that you apply the same logic accross the board for all your electronic
> gadgets, doohickies, whatsits, and thingamabobs, as you do your PC, and
yank
> all their power cords out whenever they aren't actually being used? If you
> don't, then you have a problem with consistency in the application of your
> logic.

No, the "problem" still lies with you. I made a statement and you choose to
characterize as me being paranoid and having a mortal fear of fire. I stated
my decision to mitigate a possible risk and since you have a Plexiglas side
panel in your PC, a nerve was struck and you decided to attack my position
with hyperbole and exaggerated examples you think are relevant. That's what
happened.

> You want hyperbole? You're car is full of plastic, has a high-current
> battery, yards of live wiring, a tank full of gasoline, and some other
> highly flammable liquids. It's a ticking timebomb. Better go out and drain
> that tank, and unhook the battery cables so you can sleep at night. Reply
as
> you wish. I won't bother arguing this issue further. Suffice it to say, I
> think you are an alright guy, but I think you are just a little nutty
about
> this issue. No hard feelings there, fire marhsall Bill?

I just got rear-ended by a truck the other day. Since I drive a 8,000 pound
vehicle, damage was minimal. I don't drive a 79 Pinto with the trunk stuffed
with tinder Thor, rather I choose what vehicle I drive based on what my
perceived safety of the vehicle is and I'll continue to make decisions on
what appliances I buy and how I build my PCs with my own acceptability of
risk considered and I don't expect to be called paranoid and irrational
because I choose to do so and happen to mention my view in an on topic
thread.

I find your style of argument extremely immature and utterly without merit.

On Sun, 09 May 2004 21:44:31 GMT, "Michael-NC" <> wrote:
>
>I find your style of argument extremely immature and utterly without merit.
>
>

Took you long enough to figure that out!!! LOL!

BB

BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com wrote:

> On Sun, 09 May 2004 21:44:31 GMT, "Michael-NC" <> wrote:
>
>>I find your style of argument extremely immature and utterly without merit.
>>
>>
>
>
> Took you long enough to figure that out!!! LOL!
>
> BB

What does Ekal Bnek think about this?

Virg Wall
--
A foolish consistency is the
hobgoblin of little minds,........
Ralph Waldo Emerson
(Microsoft programmer's manual.)

Some are not concerned about plastic encased equipment only
because others with technical knowledge have exercised great
pain to worry about fire. Cited previously was a car - with
significant design spent so that plastic and other
combustibles are isolated from potential flame. Fusing
everywhere so that wires do not create fire. Insides of
computers often lined in metal or metallic surfaces simply so
that rare flame does not cause burning plastic. Fire
retardant plastics used because fire is a serious problem in
every appliance. Fire is so 'rare' that it still remains a
dangerous and serious problem.

Why is every keyboard and mouse dedicated fused? Again,
fire. Why is the power supply encased in metal. Fire. Some
resistors are specially selected to be fire retardant - so
that failure does not result in flame. And yet some
technicians repair a TV - and don't use the fire retardant
resistor. They never learned that fire is a major part of
every electronic design and its repair. The shop manual was
very specific about resistors that must be flame retardant -
yet a repairman could not be bothered.

Yes there may be clone computers out there badly assembled
as to be a fire problem. Those with clear plexiglas sides are
a prime candidate. Too many don't take Michael-NC's quite
appropriate attitude: fire always remains a consideration in
every design - from PC, to automobile, to residential
building. A consideration not found where, for example,
computer experts need not have first learned these important
technical principles.

What is the chance that a two wire extension cord will cause
a bedroom fire? Near zero. That near zero is so dangerous
that we now require Arc fault breakers on all bedroom
receptacles. Why? Again, fire. Danger of fire is a
consideration in everything electrical. Everything.
Michael-NC's worry about fire is even more justified as
demonstrated in this thread where others who repair or
assemble computers apparently don't worry about the danger.
Fire always remains a major threat in every appliance.

Does that clone computer case come with consideration for
fire? What kind of plastic is used in cases with neon lights
inside? Why do we want UL sticker on our computers? Fire.
You damn well know the brand name computers worry about fire.
But then engineers must learn more than just how to assemble
parts. The major consumer concern should be clone computers
where the assembler buys parts only on price and is not
concerned about fire danger.

Another reason why every computer power supply must have
overpower protection? Fire. Something that so many clone
computers just forget to put in their discounted power
supplies.

Thor wrote:
> It falls under the realm of acceptable risk for most reasonable
> people. I'm not a bit worried about the plethora of
> plastic-encased electronic products in my home, nor do I live
> in mortal fear of my plexiglass PC side window. I think your
> paranoia of plastic is way out of proportion to the actual
> likelihood of a problem that would involve a fire.

On Mon, 10 May 2004 00:27:55 GMT, VWWall <> wrote:

>BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 09 May 2004 21:44:31 GMT, "Michael-NC" <> wrote:
>>
>>>I find your style of argument extremely immature and utterly without merit.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Took you long enough to figure that out!!! LOL!
>>
>> BB
>
>What does Ekal Bnek think about this?
>

Sorry, I think you are already overwhelmed.

BB

On Sun, 09 May 2004 21:14:53 -0400, w_tom <> wrote:

> Some are not concerned about plastic encased equipment only
>because others with technical knowledge have exercised great
>pain to worry about fire.

MEGO MEGO MEGO
MEGO MEGO MEGO
MEGO MEGO MEGO
MEGO MEGO MEGO
MEGO MEGO MEGO
MEGO MEGO MEGO
MEGO MEGO MEGO
MEGO MEGO MEGO

BB