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Group tries to hold MS responsible for crapware apps and oses

 
 
Imhotep
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Jbob
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      08-10-2005
Interesting! So if I go to your house, break your windows to gain access
and rob you blind, are you gonna sue the manufacturer of the glass because
it was breakable? Well no you of course!! Hypothetical.

Now apply that to ones car, or front door, etc.


 
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optikl
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      08-10-2005
Jbob wrote:
> Interesting! So if I go to your house, break your windows to gain access
> and rob you blind, are you gonna sue the manufacturer of the glass because
> it was breakable? Well no you of course!! Hypothetical.
>
> Now apply that to ones car, or front door, etc.
>
>

The argument is much along the lines that other products will warrant
their products fit for a particular use. Now, if you misuse it....

Microsoft would have a tough time right now warranting their product fit
for a particular use, given the unfortunate security flaws continuing to
be uncovered. Your argument above, while it's probably a good analogy
for something else, doesn't apply here.
 
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nemo_outis
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      08-10-2005
"Jbob" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed):

> Interesting! So if I go to your house, break your windows to gain
> access and rob you blind, are you gonna sue the manufacturer of the
> glass because it was breakable? Well no you of course!!
> Hypothetical.
>
> Now apply that to ones car, or front door, etc.



Some time ago I read about a US college student who, while mooning folks
out his dorm window, fell out. He sued the college for unsafe windows (not
"moon-proof" I guess). He won!

Regards,
 
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Imhotep
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      08-10-2005
Jbob wrote:

> Interesting! So if I go to your house, break your windows to gain access
> and rob you blind, are you gonna sue the manufacturer of the glass because
> it was breakable? Well no you of course!! Hypothetical.
>
> Now apply that to ones car, or front door, etc.


No, but if I leave the front door open (and leave some cookies on the table
for you) and I get robbed It is my fault for being stupid.

Understand now?
 
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Imhotep
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      08-10-2005
optikl wrote:

> Jbob wrote:
>> Interesting! So if I go to your house, break your windows to gain access
>> and rob you blind, are you gonna sue the manufacturer of the glass
>> because
>> it was breakable? Well no you of course!! Hypothetical.
>>
>> Now apply that to ones car, or front door, etc.
>>
>>

> The argument is much along the lines that other products will warrant
> their products fit for a particular use. Now, if you misuse it....
>
> Microsoft would have a tough time right now warranting their product fit
> for a particular use, given the unfortunate security flaws continuing to
> be uncovered. Your argument above, while it's probably a good analogy
> for something else, doesn't apply here.


Microsoft would not warranty their product because that would be they would
have to test it before releasing it.
 
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optikl
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      08-10-2005
Imhotep wrote:
> optikl wrote:
>
>
>>Jbob wrote:
>>
>>>Interesting! So if I go to your house, break your windows to gain access
>>>and rob you blind, are you gonna sue the manufacturer of the glass
>>>because
>>>it was breakable? Well no you of course!! Hypothetical.
>>>
>>>Now apply that to ones car, or front door, etc.
>>>
>>>

>>
>>The argument is much along the lines that other products will warrant
>>their products fit for a particular use. Now, if you misuse it....
>>
>>Microsoft would have a tough time right now warranting their product fit
>>for a particular use, given the unfortunate security flaws continuing to
>>be uncovered. Your argument above, while it's probably a good analogy
>>for something else, doesn't apply here.

>
>
> Microsoft would not warranty their product because that would be they would
> have to test it before releasing it.


They do test it; just not sufficient enough to find all the security
flaws and correct them. The reason they get away with this is because
users let them. Microsoft customers continue to reward Microsoft by
buying their products (and in fairness to Microsoft, lots of other
software vendors copy this business model) in spite of the long history
of embedded security flaws. In fact, many are happy to participate as
beta testers, hoping they'll get to find something amis, before it's
released. As long as folks continue to tolerate the current Microsoft
business development model, nothing will ever change. When Microsoft
home users start moving in droves toward other OSes, you will see a new
religion take form in the Church of Microsoft. Evolution occurs only
when unprecedent change repeats itself enough times to get noticed.
 
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Matt Silberstein
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      08-10-2005
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:15:07 -0500, in alt.computer.security , "Jbob"
<(E-Mail Removed)> in
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Interesting! So if I go to your house, break your windows to gain access
>and rob you blind, are you gonna sue the manufacturer of the glass because
>it was breakable? Well no you of course!! Hypothetical.
>
>Now apply that to ones car, or front door, etc.


If the glass is sold with the claim that it can withstand 60 mile an
hour winds and it breaks at 20, the manufacturer can be held liable.
If a car is sold that it is safe and it flips over on any turn, the
manufacturer can be held liable. Software is no different.

But it can get worse. Are you responsible if your computers send out
viruses? You are responsible for pollution. You are required to meet
fire codes and can be responsible if your building catches fire and
burns your neighbors. How about if one of your servers is compromised
and spams?
--
Matt Silberstein

Well ya see, Norm, it's like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, as we know, kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers.

Cliff on Cheers
 
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Imhotep
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      08-10-2005
optikl wrote:

> Imhotep wrote:
>> optikl wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Jbob wrote:
>>>
>>>>Interesting! So if I go to your house, break your windows to gain
>>>>access and rob you blind, are you gonna sue the manufacturer of the
>>>>glass because
>>>>it was breakable? Well no you of course!! Hypothetical.
>>>>
>>>>Now apply that to ones car, or front door, etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>The argument is much along the lines that other products will warrant
>>>their products fit for a particular use. Now, if you misuse it....
>>>
>>>Microsoft would have a tough time right now warranting their product fit
>>>for a particular use, given the unfortunate security flaws continuing to
>>>be uncovered. Your argument above, while it's probably a good analogy
>>>for something else, doesn't apply here.

>>
>>
>> Microsoft would not warranty their product because that would be they
>> would have to test it before releasing it.

>
> They do test it; just not sufficient enough to find all the security
> flaws and correct them. The reason they get away with this is because
> users let them. Microsoft customers continue to reward Microsoft by
> buying their products (and in fairness to Microsoft, lots of other
> software vendors copy this business model) in spite of the long history
> of embedded security flaws. In fact, many are happy to participate as
> beta testers, hoping they'll get to find something amis, before it's
> released. As long as folks continue to tolerate the current Microsoft
> business development model, nothing will ever change. When Microsoft
> home users start moving in droves toward other OSes, you will see a new
> religion take form in the Church of Microsoft. Evolution occurs only
> when unprecedent change repeats itself enough times to get noticed.



Agreed. However, Microsoft is trying to force user to NOT have a choice.
Look at the so-called "IP" laws. Look at what they do with protocols. They
take a protocol modify it so it does not work with other standards then
slap an "IP" claim on it. Why? To enforce that you need a MS Web browser to
view an MS web site, etc, etc. All of this is to force people to buy their
products. An the stupid "sheep" buy into it...

In short software IP laws must go....IP laws allow companies to get fat and
lazy because they shield them from competetors...IP laws also kill
innovation...and will continue to.

Imhotep
 
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optikl
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      08-11-2005
Imhotep wrote:

> In short software IP laws must go....IP laws allow companies to get fat and
> lazy because they shield them from competetors...IP laws also kill
> innovation...and will continue to.
>
> Imhotep


I guess I'd have to disagree with your analysis. No one in their right
mind would invest in technology development if they couldn't stake a
claim to it. What do you think drives venture capital investments?
Altruism? I'd suggest that if you got rid of IP laws the reverse of what
you claim will happen. Now that's just my opinion based on my
experience. We won't know what really would happen without eliminating
IP laws.
 
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