«

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:23:51 +0100, Jeremy Paxman wrote:

: :On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 12:52:13 +0100, "James" <>
: :wrote:
: :
: :>:"Frank Slootweg" <> wrote in message
: :>:news:407516ba$0$64619$. ..
: :
: :<snipped>

: :This message was sent via an encrypted tunnel. I live in the UK. I
: :would love to see the logs of my ISP. It will just be apparent
: :randomn garbage, of course. They will only know that it is encrypted
: :data and it is going to an SSH2 enabled host server in Hong Kong. I
: :use this server for all my web browsing, usenet postings/downloading
: :and Email.
: :
: :It must be very frustrating for some busybody.
: :
: :
Does not look frustrating at all.

1. What is usenet?
Here are some links with a LOT of good information:
http://www.usenet.org/
http://www.faqs.org/usenet/
http://www.hypernews.org/HyperNews/get/ usenet.html

Civil Investigations
Newshosting will not release a customer's personal information or usage information to investigators, attorneys, or agencies unless we are
directed to do so by a court of competent jurisdiction in the matter. If there is a hearing in court, the customer will be notified so they
will have an opportunity to contest the surrender of personal information.

Criminal Investigations
Newshosting cooperates fully with law enforcement agencies, yet there must still be a court order before Newshosting surrenders customer
information. The Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution requires a court order to conduct a search and seizure. Newshosting will, when
requested by law enforcement entities, acknowledge the existence of personal customer information, and when requested, provide the technical
language to include in the court order, "particularly describing ... the property to be seized." In a criminal investigation Newshosting is
under a duty not to divulge the fact of the investigation to the customer


Pricing

10G/month
$10

25G/month
$20

50G/month
$30

60G/semi-annual
$50

150G/semi-annual
$100

300G/semi-annual
$150



Retention

binary
99%+
~18 days

text
99%+
~180 days

Questions & Answers

2. What newsgroups do you carry?
A complete list can be found at http:// www.newshosting.com/support/util/groups/.

> I would like to agree with you, but I have actually examined some of the
> logs which are kept in UK and there is plenty (!) of content - most recently
> I saw some interesting chat room conversations retained in network logs.
UK
> ISPs are aware that they are required as part of their good practice
> policies to maintain such records as will "facilitate investigation" by the
> boys in blue. Keeping the info is not difficult just expensive.
>
> But the principal point I'm making is that despite the beneficent impetus
> from EU Directives to protect the privacy of the individual and his/her
> communications, the UK goes much, much, much further than necessary in
> pursuit of the qualificatino of "preventing crime" and has little if any
> regard for rights of individual privacy at all. The Netherlands, on the
> other hand, has a long tradition of protection of individual rights and
> freedoms. There is a huge gulf between the attitudes of both nations.
>
> regards
> James


I think this is upside down. I though it was Europe who are desperately trying
to establish data retention laws..or was that more Tony Bliar spin ?

Generally, I obviously have to agree with many of these posts that a vast amount
of data can be and is logged at multiple locations. But I also feel that there
has not been really any cases of this logged data getting into the public domain
which I find highly surprising.

We've seen in the UK high profile celebrity sting operations (like with Pete
Townsend) who was accused (apparently the FBI tipped off UK authorites) that
he had accessed material from a child porn website.

We've seen cases like Gary Glitter where he stupidly walked into PC world with
a load of child porn filth on his machine

It would be nothing for a lowly/or ****ed off ISP employee to be approached
by a journalist looking for dirt on a celebrity/politican to dig around the
logs and get some juicy info. And even if this were illegal and intrusive it
would *still* get into the public domain and slip out gradually about what
sort of porn celebrities and politicans were viewing, and compromising emails
that were exchanged etc. Even the Police in the UK are very very fond on leaking
celebrity dirt stories to the press (Towsend, Leslie) etc.

The fact that this hasn't really happened yet is very surprising. Maybe they
use Cotse or a similar service but to be honest I doubt that.

In any event, UK or EU laws, people really never understood the threat that
Tony Bliar and his corrupt rotten government posed to the fabric of the UK

privacy fan

> I would like to agree with you, but I have actually examined some of the
> logs which are kept in UK and there is plenty (!) of content - most recently
> I saw some interesting chat room conversations retained in network logs.
UK
> ISPs are aware that they are required as part of their good practice
> policies to maintain such records as will "facilitate investigation" by the
> boys in blue. Keeping the info is not difficult just expensive.
>
> But the principal point I'm making is that despite the beneficent impetus
> from EU Directives to protect the privacy of the individual and his/her
> communications, the UK goes much, much, much further than necessary in
> pursuit of the qualificatino of "preventing crime" and has little if any
> regard for rights of individual privacy at all. The Netherlands, on the
> other hand, has a long tradition of protection of individual rights and
> freedoms. There is a huge gulf between the attitudes of both nations.
>
> regards
> James


I think this is upside down. I though it was Europe who are desperately trying
to establish data retention laws..or was that more Tony Bliar spin ?

Generally, I obviously have to agree with many of these posts that a vast amount
of data can be and is logged at multiple locations. But I also feel that there
has not been really any cases of this logged data getting into the public domain
which I find highly surprising.

We've seen in the UK high profile celebrity sting operations (like with Pete
Townsend) who was accused (apparently the FBI tipped off UK authorites) that
he had accessed material from a child porn website.

We've seen cases like Gary Glitter where he stupidly walked into PC world with
a load of child porn filth on his machine

It would be nothing for a lowly/or ****ed off ISP employee to be approached
by a journalist looking for dirt on a celebrity/politican to dig around the
logs and get some juicy info. And even if this were illegal and intrusive it
would *still* get into the public domain and slip out gradually about what
sort of porn celebrities and politicans were viewing, and compromising emails
that were exchanged etc. Even the Police in the UK are very very fond on leaking
celebrity dirt stories to the press (Towsend, Leslie) etc.

The fact that this hasn't really happened yet is very surprising. Maybe they
use Cotse or a similar service but to be honest I doubt that.

In any event, UK or EU laws, people really never understood the threat that
Tony Bliar and his corrupt rotten government posed to the fabric of the UK

privacy fan

"Anonymous" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address@[127.1]> wrote in message
news:...

>> I think this is upside down. I though it was Europe who are desperately
trying
> to establish data retention laws..or was that more Tony Bliar spin ?

> In any event, UK or EU laws, people really never understood the threat
that
> Tony Bliar and his corrupt rotten government posed to the fabric of the UK

It is Tony Bliar spin. The whole thrust of relevant EU directives is to
protect personal privacy. But this really sticks in the throat of our Fuhrer
and his cronies who want complete information and complete control.

regards
Don

Barry Margolin <> wrote in news:barmar-
:

>> yes. but as you state, "have the ability to log".
>
> Actually, I'd like to qualify my statement. The logging that can be
> done with routers is often quite limited. For instance, on a Cisco
> router you can use "debug ip packet detailed" to get packet traces, but
> it doesn't show the payload; you can get addresses, port numbers, and
> TCP flags, but not the application data (which is where the newsgroup
> information would be).
>
> However, it may be possible to install an RMON module in a router to
> perform full packet capture.
>

pro. cisco guys tend to kick serious butt at comp. networking. i am pretty
sure they have more than a few tricks up their sleve they can use if they
were asked to implement a solution by a law enforcement agency.

Rowdy Yates
"the man who tried and failed miserably"
--
Visit Rowdy's Home Page
http://rowdy_yates2.tripod.com/

Can they not use Secure nntp over port 563? I have not done this, so
I am unsure, but just a thought?

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 22:50:06 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio
<> wrote:

>> I would like to agree with you, but I have actually examined some of the
>> logs which are kept in UK and there is plenty (!) of content - most recently
>> I saw some interesting chat room conversations retained in network logs.
>UK
>> ISPs are aware that they are required as part of their good practice
>> policies to maintain such records as will "facilitate investigation" by the
>> boys in blue. Keeping the info is not difficult just expensive.
>>
>> But the principal point I'm making is that despite the beneficent impetus
>> from EU Directives to protect the privacy of the individual and his/her
>> communications, the UK goes much, much, much further than necessary in
>> pursuit of the qualificatino of "preventing crime" and has little if any
>> regard for rights of individual privacy at all. The Netherlands, on the
>> other hand, has a long tradition of protection of individual rights and
>> freedoms. There is a huge gulf between the attitudes of both nations.
>>
>> regards
>> James
>
>
>I think this is upside down. I though it was Europe who are desperately trying
>to establish data retention laws..or was that more Tony Bliar spin ?
>
>Generally, I obviously have to agree with many of these posts that a vast amount
>of data can be and is logged at multiple locations. But I also feel that there
>has not been really any cases of this logged data getting into the public domain
>which I find highly surprising.
>
>We've seen in the UK high profile celebrity sting operations (like with Pete
>Townsend) who was accused (apparently the FBI tipped off UK authorites) that
>he had accessed material from a child porn website.
>
>We've seen cases like Gary Glitter where he stupidly walked into PC world with
>a load of child porn filth on his machine
>
>It would be nothing for a lowly/or ****ed off ISP employee to be approached
>by a journalist looking for dirt on a celebrity/politican to dig around the
>logs and get some juicy info. And even if this were illegal and intrusive it
>would *still* get into the public domain and slip out gradually about what
>sort of porn celebrities and politicans were viewing, and compromising emails
>that were exchanged etc. Even the Police in the UK are very very fond on leaking
>celebrity dirt stories to the press (Towsend, Leslie) etc.
>
>The fact that this hasn't really happened yet is very surprising. Maybe they
>use Cotse or a similar service but to be honest I doubt that.
>
>In any event, UK or EU laws, people really never understood the threat that
>Tony Bliar and his corrupt rotten government posed to the fabric of the UK
>
>privacy fan
>
>
>

Regal <> wrote in message
news:94C495766E51A628D1@64.62.191.200...
> I want to take part in discussions which I don't want my ISP
> snooping around in.
>
> Can my ISP see my Usenet traffic to the extent that the ISP can see
> if I post to or download from a given newsgroup if I use a
> newsserver which is not operated by them?
>
> For example, I use BTopenworld as an ISP in the UK. If I post this
> Usenet message via the independent Astra newsserver then can
> BTopenworld see what I have read/posted by examining the traffic
> passing through their server. Can they tell which newsgroups I
> used to post or read?
>
> If they CAN do this they how EASY and how LIKELY is it for them to
> actually do it?
>
> ---
>
> And what about for protocols used by Kazaa and other file sharing
> prgrams?

Do a Google search on the words "Astra newsserver " with quotes.

You'll see that it's not only your ISP that can see your Usenet traffic!

I posted a message complaining about a crap boss I had and it turned up the
head of the list in Google if you did a search on his name.

Being a vain man, I'd dare say he did such a search fairly often and saw my
nasty post! Oh dear - how sad - never mind!

Nemo the newbie.

Your ISP can see everything you do if they want. Although it's not likely
they will zero in on you unless they get a complaint. Everything means
mail, surfing, news, and everything else.

Most ISP's are routinely logging all customers accounts as I've read. You
need to use a good privacy service:
www.privacy.li
www.cotse.net
www.anonymizer.com
Only thing is if you want this protection you will have to pay for it. Hope
this helps.

"nemo" <> wrote in message
news:VEkuc.1113$...
>
> Regal <> wrote in message
> news:94C495766E51A628D1@64.62.191.200...
> > I want to take part in discussions which I don't want my ISP
> > snooping around in.
> >
> > Can my ISP see my Usenet traffic to the extent that the ISP can see
> > if I post to or download from a given newsgroup if I use a
> > newsserver which is not operated by them?
> >
> > For example, I use BTopenworld as an ISP in the UK. If I post this
> > Usenet message via the independent Astra newsserver then can
> > BTopenworld see what I have read/posted by examining the traffic
> > passing through their server. Can they tell which newsgroups I
> > used to post or read?
> >
> > If they CAN do this they how EASY and how LIKELY is it for them to
> > actually do it?
> >
> > ---
> >
> > And what about for protocols used by Kazaa and other file sharing
> > prgrams?
>
> Do a Google search on the words "Astra newsserver " with quotes.
>
> You'll see that it's not only your ISP that can see your Usenet traffic!
>
> I posted a message complaining about a crap boss I had and it turned up
the
> head of the list in Google if you did a search on his name.
>
> Being a vain man, I'd dare say he did such a search fairly often and saw
my
> nasty post! Oh dear - how sad - never mind!
>
> Nemo the newbie.
>
>

The last I heard was they keep a record of what everyone has posted for a
couple of months, but because of storage restrictions only keep a record of
what they've looked at for a week or two if that.

The security services scan all communications using key words to select what
to store and follow up, like Bin Laden, names of explosives, weapons, names
of extremist groups etc. but these days I don't think anyone would object to
that.

Anyway, last night, Channel 4 proudly announced that since a judgement under
the Human Rights Act some months ago, which the media and the pro-censorship
lobby have pointedly ignored up to now, hard-core adult porn is now
perfectly legal in the UK. So unless you're a really sick puppy like Jacko,
they can't nick you now anyway!

Mary Whitehouse must be turning in her grave!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1673170.stm

I met her once. She was the sort of person where you only had to say hello
and you'd realise she was barmy! My cousin met Margaret Thatcher once too.
Same diagnosis! Anyone on here met Dubya???? )

Nemo

PS: Ganja is more-or-less legal over here now too, so we're not doing too
bad, even with a git like Tony B'Liar for PM.


Chester <all-> wrote in message
news:40ba13ea$0$77348$...
> Your ISP can see everything you do if they want. Although it's not likely
> they will zero in on you unless they get a complaint. Everything means
> mail, surfing, news, and everything else.
>
> Most ISP's are routinely logging all customers accounts as I've read. You
> need to use a good privacy service:
> www.privacy.li
> www.cotse.net
> www.anonymizer.com
> Only thing is if you want this protection you will have to pay for it.
Hope
> this helps.
>
> "nemo" <> wrote in message
> news:VEkuc.1113$...
> >
> > Regal <> wrote in message
> > news:94C495766E51A628D1@64.62.191.200...
> > > I want to take part in discussions which I don't want my ISP
> > > snooping around in.
> > >
> > > Can my ISP see my Usenet traffic to the extent that the ISP can see
> > > if I post to or download from a given newsgroup if I use a
> > > newsserver which is not operated by them?
> > >
> > > For example, I use BTopenworld as an ISP in the UK. If I post this
> > > Usenet message via the independent Astra newsserver then can
> > > BTopenworld see what I have read/posted by examining the traffic
> > > passing through their server. Can they tell which newsgroups I
> > > used to post or read?
> > >
> > > If they CAN do this they how EASY and how LIKELY is it for them to
> > > actually do it?
> > >
> > > ---
> > >
> > > And what about for protocols used by Kazaa and other file sharing
> > > prgrams?
> >
> > Do a Google search on the words "Astra newsserver " with quotes.
> >
> > You'll see that it's not only your ISP that can see your Usenet traffic!
> >
> > I posted a message complaining about a crap boss I had and it turned up
> the
> > head of the list in Google if you did a search on his name.
> >
> > Being a vain man, I'd dare say he did such a search fairly often and saw
> my
> > nasty post! Oh dear - how sad - never mind!
> >
> > Nemo the newbie.
> >
> >
>
>

I don't understand. ISPs do not keep copies of e-mails surely? So why
would they keep NNTP traffic?

I thought the storage directive in the UK was voluntary and the ISPs were
refusing to sign-up to it?

"nemo" <> wrote in message
news:cm6vc.1666$...
> The last I heard was they keep a record of what everyone has posted for a
> couple of months, but because of storage restrictions only keep a record
of
> what they've looked at for a week or two if that.
>
> The security services scan all communications using key words to select
what
> to store and follow up, like Bin Laden, names of explosives, weapons,
names
> of extremist groups etc. but these days I don't think anyone would object
to
> that.
>
> Anyway, last night, Channel 4 proudly announced that since a judgement
under
> the Human Rights Act some months ago, which the media and the
pro-censorship
> lobby have pointedly ignored up to now, hard-core adult porn is now
> perfectly legal in the UK. So unless you're a really sick puppy like
Jacko,
> they can't nick you now anyway!
>
> Mary Whitehouse must be turning in her grave!
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1673170.stm
>
> I met her once. She was the sort of person where you only had to say hello
> and you'd realise she was barmy! My cousin met Margaret Thatcher once too.
> Same diagnosis! Anyone on here met Dubya???? )
>
> Nemo
>
> PS: Ganja is more-or-less legal over here now too, so we're not doing too
> bad, even with a git like Tony B'Liar for PM.
>
>
> Chester <all-> wrote in message
> news:40ba13ea$0$77348$...
> > Your ISP can see everything you do if they want. Although it's not
likely
> > they will zero in on you unless they get a complaint. Everything means
> > mail, surfing, news, and everything else.
> >
> > Most ISP's are routinely logging all customers accounts as I've read.
You
> > need to use a good privacy service:
> > www.privacy.li
> > www.cotse.net
> > www.anonymizer.com
> > Only thing is if you want this protection you will have to pay for it.
> Hope
> > this helps.
> >
> > "nemo" <> wrote in message
> > news:VEkuc.1113$...
> > >
> > > Regal <> wrote in message
> > > news:94C495766E51A628D1@64.62.191.200...
> > > > I want to take part in discussions which I don't want my ISP
> > > > snooping around in.
> > > >
> > > > Can my ISP see my Usenet traffic to the extent that the ISP can see
> > > > if I post to or download from a given newsgroup if I use a
> > > > newsserver which is not operated by them?
> > > >
> > > > For example, I use BTopenworld as an ISP in the UK. If I post this
> > > > Usenet message via the independent Astra newsserver then can
> > > > BTopenworld see what I have read/posted by examining the traffic
> > > > passing through their server. Can they tell which newsgroups I
> > > > used to post or read?
> > > >
> > > > If they CAN do this they how EASY and how LIKELY is it for them to
> > > > actually do it?
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > > > And what about for protocols used by Kazaa and other file sharing
> > > > prgrams?
> > >
> > > Do a Google search on the words "Astra newsserver " with quotes.
> > >
> > > You'll see that it's not only your ISP that can see your Usenet
traffic!
> > >
> > > I posted a message complaining about a crap boss I had and it turned
up
> > the
> > > head of the list in Google if you did a search on his name.
> > >
> > > Being a vain man, I'd dare say he did such a search fairly often and
saw
> > my
> > > nasty post! Oh dear - how sad - never mind!
> > >
> > > Nemo the newbie.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>