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TDA Menu Problem

 
 
Ken Maltby
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      06-14-2006

"Bob" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:34:23 -0500, "Ken Maltby"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> There is only one menu on the DVD you made. WinDVD is apparently
>>calling it a Title Menu.

>
> But TDA called it the Main Menu, and reserved the term Title Menu for
> something entirely different.
>


Again Semantics. And TDA doesn't mention a "Title Menu" at any time.


>>There is no way for the DVD to magically create
>>another menu to be your "Root Menu a.k.a. (by you, as a) Main Menu".

>
> Commercial DVDs create a Root Menu.
>


Yes they sometimes do, but when they want their DVDs to have
more than one menu, they create more than one menu.

>> When TDA makes a "Main" menu it is the menu in the DVD specifications
>>that lets you select different VTS (Video Title Sets). A DVD can also
>>have
>>other menus including a "root" menu to select other menus (audio,
>>subpicture, special features, ect..) that need not be the "Main" menu for
>>VTS selection.

>
> Commercial DVDs put the two together and call it the Root Menu. I am
> able to access it in WinDVD thru "Root Menu" and with my DVDR as
> "Menu". I don't even have a Title key on my programmable remote.
>


Not all the time, and not using "Root Menu" as a consistent term. The
player doesn't have any idea what the programmer who authored the DVD
(or the program he used) may have called his menus, they just respond to
the VM commands that navigate them through the DVD as it is structured.

All DVDs conform within the limits of a defined structure, in terms of
the allowed menu structure, as well; but there is a good deal of creative
flexibility built into the structure. No two DVDs (commercial or
otherwise) need be constructed with the same menus, but they all must
conform to the specifications.

It is pointless to get into a discussion of what terms should be used
for the different processes and implementations of the features of a
DVD. Different authoring programs, players, remotes, dropdown
menus, ect... will use different terms for the same processes and the
same terms for totally different processes. You and Alpha seem to
be able to pick the terms you believe should be used, and feel that
any use, contrary to that, is wrong.

This whole thread makes me wonder what you do when you go
out and there are no "Bathrooms" only "Rest Rooms", or "Men's
room" or some other colorful term?

I can make or trick TDA into making just about any menu I
might need. I don't expect every player out there to respond
exactly the same or use the same term as I intended. I am
often just glad if it will play the particular media, burned with the
particular program and file format I may have used. Most of the
time I get very satisfactory results.

Luck;
Ken



 
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afn03488@afn.org
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      06-15-2006
> How do you get TDA (TMPGEnc DVD Author ) to put up a "Main Menu"?

> I can only get it to put up a "Title Menu", as indicated in WinDVD
> and my ILO DVDR.


> I have "Only Main Menu" checked under "Menu Display Settings" so
> you would think TDA would follow its own instructions. -- Bob


This is your problem, it did.

> But all I get is a Title Menu - and I didn't even ask for one.
> -- Bob


You asked for a "Main Menu" and that is what you got, what in DVD
parlance is known as a "Title Menu". The fact that WinDVD and your
ILO use different terms than TDA shouldn't bother you any more than
than the meaning of "fender" depends on whether you are in the US
or Britain.

> Semantics, most likely. -- Ken Maltby


Most definitely.

> Whatever name TDA has for it, the devices (WinDVD and ILO DVDR)
> call it Title Menu. I have to use the "Title" key on the remote
> for the DVDR - the "Menu" key won't work at all. -- Bob


Well that is what it is in DVD parlance. The "Title", or "Top Menu"
key on remotes jump from where ever you are on the DVD to the PGC
labeled "Title" in the VIDEO_TS.VOB. When you press the "Menu" you
jump to the "Root" menu in which ever VTS is currently playing. The
reason your "Menu" key won't work is that you failed to specify a
"Root" menu by checking "Main Menu Only".

> There is no entry under "Root Menu" in WinDVD - it's empty. -- Bob


> In TDA you can also have a menu for each Title/VTS where you can
> select the chapters within the title. This is called a track menu
> in TDA. You could also describe it as a menu of the chapters within
> a particular title/VTS/Track, or a Chapter Menu. Since TDA is using
> the term "track" for Title, you might consider it the Title's Menu
> also. -- Ken Maltby


> I am aware of that. -- Bob


No you aren't, or you wouldn't have structured your DVD as you did.

> My problem is that I have to use the Title key on the ILO remote
> because I do not have it programmed into my main remote since I
> have never had to use it. -- Bob


Well if you would learn to use TDA, you still wouldn't.

> With ordinary DVDs, the Menu key works. -- Bob


That's because "ordinary DVDs" have "Root Menus" for each VTS.

> I think this is a bug that came about because the Japanese do not
> understand how people use their remotes.


It's not a bug; PEBKAC.

> But I can live with it - I will have to mark the discs to remind me
> to use the original remote with the Title key. It would have been
> so much simplier if the developer had just done it right from the
> outset. -- Bob


No, it would be simpler if you programmed your main remote to have a
"Title" or "Top Menu" key. That and learn how to design navigational
structures for your own DVDs.

"There is much to be said in favor of the Internet. By giving us the
opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance
of the community." -- Bob's signature

Never were truer words spoken concerning your own state of mind.

> You and Alpha, anything that works differently than you want or
> expect is a "BUG". -- Ken Maltby


If Bob were to climb into a cockpit, he would assume the pedals were
for only for braking and accelerating and the throttles were seperate
gearshift levers for each engine. Why should God expect him to learn
how to operate it; planes should be intuitive to operate.

> However once I have made a selection, I cannot access the menu again
> without using the title button. -- Bob


If you don't have a "Root Menu" in the title you have selected, how
the **** do you expect that title to respond to the "Menu" button?

> I can, however, access the titles via the GoTo function where the
> various titles are enumerated albeit in cryptic manner. Or I suppose
> I could cycle the disc open each time. -- Bob


Or you could supply a "Root Menu" in each VTS which did nothing but
auto invoke the "Title Menu" in the VIDEO_TS.VOB.

> If you take a look on the window called "Display Menu Settings" you
> will find a "Main Menu" and a "Track Menu".
> If you select "Main Menu Only" you end up with what WinDVD calls the
> Title Menu and no Root Menu aka Main Menu. -- Bob


As Ken indicated, a matter of semantics. In DVD parlence, there is no
such thing as a "Main" menu. Menus are contained in the VIDEO_TS.VOB
and the various VTS_nn_0.VOBs. Each PGC is a seperate menu. Most do
not even have video blocks, so you see nothing on your display. Some do
have video blocks, and some of those have defined buttons which you can
invoke a response via your remote. Navigation is programmed into these
PGCs.Even fewer have a specific category assigned. The available
categories are "Title", "Root", "Audio", "Subtitle"/"Subpicture", and
"Chapter". The VIDEO_TS.VOB can only have a "Title" menu, and only the
VIDEO_TS.VOB can have a "Title" menu. The remaining types can occur in
each VTS_nn_0.VOB. Pressing the appropriate remote key causes an
interruption in play, if applicable, and a jump to the corresponding
PGC within the VTS currently active. Pressing the "Title" or "Top Menu"
key causes the active VTS to be terminated and a jump to the "Title"
PGC in the VIDEO_TS.VOB.

> I do not remember calling these issues bugs. I called them design flaws.
> -- Alpha


The only design flaws involved are the gamates supplied by your
parents.

> But TDA called it the Main Menu, and reserved the term Title Menu for
> something entirely different. -- Bob


As Ken later claims, TDA does not refer to a "Title Menu". Where do
you find this reserved usage, and what does it do?

> Commercial DVDs create a Root Menu. -- Bob


No joke, they supply a Root Menu for each VTS so there is something
to respond to the "Menu" key. They also supply a "Title" menu in the
VIDEO_TS.VOB so there is an ability to leave a VTS which does not
have a selectable menu.

> Commercial DVDs put the two together and call it the Root Menu. I
> am able to access it in WinDVD thru "Root Menu" and with my DVDR
> as "Menu". -- Bob


To put it bluntly, you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

Most often the "Title" menu on commercial DVDs does not display a
thing. It is generally a method of resetting the state of the DVD
player without cycling thru a tray open and close to invoke
"FirstPlay" and bypasses all the original nag screens.

What you are calling a "Main Menu" is generally either the "Root Menu"
or a PGC jumped to by the "Root Menu" of the main or feature VTS. I'd
suggest you try PGCedit [it's free] and actually look at the menu
structure of several commercial DVDs [preferably of different brands]
to see how they are actually structured, but your previous posts
indicate you are a "one click" wonder who demands instant comfort.

> I don't even have a Title key on my programmable remote. -- Bob


That is your personal problem.

Look, Ken knows his way around TDA; he can help you, BUT, first you
have to come to grips with the fact that YOU have the problem, not TDA.

 
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Bob
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      06-15-2006
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:08:50 -0500, "Ken Maltby"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> I can make or trick TDA into making just about any menu I
>might need.


Can you get it to make what WinDVD and ILO DVDR call "Root Menu"?

Maybe I need to reprogram my remote to the "Title" button and leave
the "Menu" button off.


--

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
will make violent revolution inevitable."
--Sun Tzu
 
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Bob
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      06-15-2006
On 15 Jun 2006 04:27:25 -0700, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:

>Look, Ken knows his way around TDA; he can help you, BUT, first you
>have to come to grips with the fact that YOU have the problem, not TDA.


It's obviously a matter of definitions. TDA uses the term "Main Menu"
to mean what WinDVD and ILO DVDR use for "Title". There is no
provision for creating a menu that WinDVD and ILO call the "Root Menu"
or simply "Menu".

Maybe I can get by with reprogramming my remote to accomodate this
semantic shift.



--

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
will make violent revolution inevitable."
--Sun Tzu
 
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Bob
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      06-15-2006
On 15 Jun 2006 04:27:25 -0700, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:

>> But all I get is a Title Menu - and I didn't even ask for one.


>You asked for a "Main Menu" and that is what you got, what in DVD
>parlance is known as a "Title Menu". The fact that WinDVD and your
>ILO use different terms than TDA


Actually WinDVD and ILO both use "Title", so they got it right.

What has confused me is the use of the term "Main Menu" by TDA to mean
Title Menu. I was expecting it to mean "Root Menu". But TDA doesn't
even have any Root Menu.

How silly of me to think that "Main" meant "Root" and not "Title".


--

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
will make violent revolution inevitable."
--Sun Tzu
 
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Ken Maltby
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      06-15-2006

"Bob" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On 15 Jun 2006 04:27:25 -0700, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>
>>> But all I get is a Title Menu - and I didn't even ask for one.

>
>>You asked for a "Main Menu" and that is what you got, what in DVD
>>parlance is known as a "Title Menu". The fact that WinDVD and your
>>ILO use different terms than TDA

>
> Actually WinDVD and ILO both use "Title", so they got it right.
>
> What has confused me is the use of the term "Main Menu" by TDA to mean
> Title Menu. I was expecting it to mean "Root Menu". But TDA doesn't
> even have any Root Menu.
>
> How silly of me to think that "Main" meant "Root" and not "Title".
>
>
> --


The first two paragraphs from my first reply to your post:

"Semantics, most likely.

The "Main" menu in TDA is the top menu that lets you select
the from VTS/Titles (which are described as tracks in TDA).
So it could be described as a menu of Titles, or the Title Menu."

Luck;
Ken


 
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Bob
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      06-15-2006
On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 08:41:14 -0500, "Ken Maltby"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>> How silly of me to think that "Main" meant "Root" and not "Title".


> The "Main" menu in TDA is the top menu that lets you select
>the from VTS/Titles (which are described as tracks in TDA).
>So it could be described as a menu of Titles, or the Title Menu."


Then it should be called the Title Menu and not Main Menu, which
implies the conventional Root Menu. In addition, there should be a
provision for creating a Root Menu for those who want one.

BTW, TDA does have a separate "Track Menu" which according to you
would be applicable to "VTS/Titles (which are described as tracks in
TDA)". That reinforces the belief that "Main Menu" refers to the
conventional Root Menu and that "Track Menu" refers to the
conventional Title Menu.

I have never used the TDA "Track Menu" so I have no idea what happens
when you do use it.

--

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
will make violent revolution inevitable."
--Sun Tzu
 
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Ken Maltby
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      06-16-2006

"Bob" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 08:41:14 -0500, "Ken Maltby"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>> How silly of me to think that "Main" meant "Root" and not "Title".

>
>> The "Main" menu in TDA is the top menu that lets you select
>>the from VTS/Titles (which are described as tracks in TDA).
>>So it could be described as a menu of Titles, or the Title Menu."

>
> Then it should be called the Title Menu and not Main Menu, which
> implies the conventional Root Menu. In addition, there should be a
> provision for creating a Root Menu for those who want one.
>
> BTW, TDA does have a separate "Track Menu" which according to you
> would be applicable to "VTS/Titles (which are described as tracks in
> TDA)". That reinforces the belief that "Main Menu" refers to the
> conventional Root Menu and that "Track Menu" refers to the
> conventional Title Menu.
>
> I have never used the TDA "Track Menu" so I have no idea what happens
> when you do use it.
>
> --


I could quote the third paragraph of my first reply, where I described
the track menu. ( The one which you said you were aware of what I
described.) But given this post, I have to think this discussion is a lost
cause. Call things whatever you want, have whatever "belief" you wish.
TDA will use the terms as they have been, as will the other programs,
you can feel that TDA's use is wrong all you want, it won't change reality
in the slightest manner.

Perhaps if you had actually read, at least the first three paragraphs
of my initial four paragraph reply, and given what I said some thought,
you could have a better understanding. As it is you seem more
concerned about what terms are used than about the processes
involved.

Luck;
Ken


 
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afn03488@afn.org
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      06-16-2006
>> I can make or trick TDA into making just about any menu I
>> might need. -- Ken Maltby



> Can you get it to make what WinDVD and ILO DVDR call "Root Menu"?
> -- Bob



Yes, but it behaves more like a "Chapters Menu" than a "Root Menu",
nevertheless it will respond to your menu button. All you have to do
is select both "Top Menu" and "Track Menus". It's behavior is also
obnoxious in that it requires multiple presses to start play and
multiple presses to return to what you call your "Main Menu".

> Maybe I need to reprogram my remote to the "Title" button and leave
> the "Menu" button off. -- Bob



NO!!!!! You will mess up your remote's behavior with commercial DVDs.

BTW, what is the make and model of this remote?

> It's obviously a matter of definitions. TDA uses the term
> "Main Menu" to mean what WinDVD and ILO DVDR use for "Title".
> There is no provision for creating a menu that WinDVD and ILO call
> the "Root Menu" or simply "Menu". -- Bob


I just downloaded the current trial version OF TDA and experimented
with it. The term they are currently using is "Top Menu" which conforms
to the buttons on two of my set top remotes.

Once more with feeling, a DVD player is a virtual 16 bit computer
with a peculiar instruction set. Your remote keys are a means of
causing an interrupt. If you press the "Menu Key", the current process
is stopped and control passed to the "Root Menu" of the currently
active VTS. If there is no defined "Root Menu" in the active VTS,
nothing happens. Every remote I have for a set top player provides
either a "Title" key or a "Top Menu" key. It is a distinct interrupt
from the "Menu Key" and jumps from the current VTS to the VIDEO_TS.VOB.
If there was no "Title Menu", this interrupt would also not function.

Do not assume the screen with selectable buttons for the top hierarchy
of your DVD is the "title" or "main" menu. It may not even be in the
same VTS for which it establishes navigation. How they are used on a
particular DVD depends on the author/programmer. From the player's
point of view, "Top Menu/Title Key" jumps to instructions in the
VIDEO_TS.VOB; "Menu" jumps to instructions in the current VTS_nn_0.VOB.
If you will look at the directory of your problem DVD, there are no
VTS_nn_0.VOBs. It doesn't mean **** which key is pressed, it is what
the instructions do at the location vectored. You would think "Angle"
would refer to camera angle, but it is most often used to initialize
foreign language handling or to provide newspaper print or letters
which correspond to the selected audio language. It could just as
well be the chapters or special features menu. All the player knows is
that the remote has requested an interrupt, and the DVD says transfer
control to the specified location.

> BTW, TDA does have a separate "Track Menu" which according to you
> would be applicable to "VTS/Titles (which are described as tracks
> in TDA)". That reinforces the belief that "Main Menu" refers to the
> conventional Root Menu and that "Track Menu" refers to the
> conventional Title Menu. -- Bob


No, a TDA "track" refers to a VTS/video title set. These menus are
actually defined as "Root Menus" even though they behave more like
traditional chapter menus from the way TDA constructs them.

> I have never used the TDA "Track Menu" so I have no idea what happens
> when you do use it. -- Bob


It responds when you press the "Menu key".

As I said above, I have just tried the new trial version available.
If I take your course and specify "Top Menu" only, the VIDEO_TS.VOB
actually includes references to "Root Menus" which it fails to create.
Fortunately these references are in orphaned bits of code which cannot
be reached.

There is not a simple one step solution to your problem, but there is
a solution. If you will download and install PgcEdit and drop me an
e-mail, I will step you thru the procedure to create a "Root Menu" for
each VTS which does nothing but invoke your "Title Menu". That way
you won't have to foul up your remote's behavior with commercial DVDs
and your Menu key will reach the "Main/Top" menu which TDA created.
OTOH it is a PITA.

 
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Buchetamo
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      06-16-2006

"Ken Maltby" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ...
>
> "Bob" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 08:41:14 -0500, "Ken Maltby"
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>>> How silly of me to think that "Main" meant "Root" and not "Title".

>>
>>> The "Main" menu in TDA is the top menu that lets you select
>>>the from VTS/Titles (which are described as tracks in TDA).
>>>So it could be described as a menu of Titles, or the Title Menu."

>>
>> Then it should be called the Title Menu and not Main Menu, which
>> implies the conventional Root Menu. In addition, there should be a
>> provision for creating a Root Menu for those who want one.
>>
>> BTW, TDA does have a separate "Track Menu" which according to you
>> would be applicable to "VTS/Titles (which are described as tracks in
>> TDA)". That reinforces the belief that "Main Menu" refers to the
>> conventional Root Menu and that "Track Menu" refers to the
>> conventional Title Menu.
>>
>> I have never used the TDA "Track Menu" so I have no idea what happens
>> when you do use it.
>>
>> --

>
> I could quote the third paragraph of my first reply, where I described
> the track menu. ( The one which you said you were aware of what I
> described.) But given this post, I have to think this discussion is a
> lost
> cause. Call things whatever you want, have whatever "belief" you wish.
> TDA will use the terms as they have been, as will the other programs,
> you can feel that TDA's use is wrong all you want, it won't change reality
> in the slightest manner.
>
> Perhaps if you had actually read, at least the first three paragraphs
> of my initial four paragraph reply, and given what I said some thought,
> you could have a better understanding. As it is you seem more
> concerned about what terms are used than about the processes
> involved.
>
> Luck;
> Ken
>

Hello Ken,
Sorry to intrude but I need your help & would appreciate your guidance: I
have installed in my computer
TMPGEnc Author 1.6 & I've thinking to upgrade to TMPGEnc Author 2.0 ($59),
but
I've been following your "announcement" on the release of TMPGEnc 4.0
Xpress ($79); perhaps I'm not the only one, but I'm confused: what is the
difference here? is the upgrade to Author 2.0 a waste of money when for $20
extra you can get 4.0 Xpress? Thanks in advance...
Buchetamo



 
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