Sorting improvement in newer Thunderbird release?

After using OE for mai and news (yes, OE can be used for posting
correctly with some additional utility) for years I switched to
Thunderbird around 2 years ago. The main reason was that OE data backup
is simply terrible, with TB I just can backup the data folder and have
everything I need.

However, there are several things in newsgroup handling that really
annoy me, and when searching newsgroups and forums I also found that I'm
not the only one who is annoyed. My main critics are:

- Messages sorted as threaded by reference (TB can show messages
threaded but if set to sort by date then it sorts them for the date of
the oldest/latest message and not the oldest/latest reference message.
As a result the order of thread gets mixed as soon as a new message is
downloaded).
- Thread expansion: OE could be set to show all threads expanded by
default. With TB I always have to expand threads manually, and even if I
expanded all threads in a newsgroup new threads will be shown collapsed.
There should be an option that allows setting to show all threads
expanded by default.
- Alphabetical newsgroup listing: in OE subscribed newsgroups are listed
alphabetically. TB lists groups in the order they are subscribed to.
When using lots of groups this is really annoying. There should be an
option to sort them alphabetically.
- X-posted messages: in OE, if you read a message that was x-posted in
several groups in one group it would show as "read" in other groups. In
TB the same message gets "read" in the group you read it but is still
marked as "unread" in all other groups.
- Search field in newsgroup subscribe window can only use one keyword
(in OE you can use multiple keywords).
- Search function: in OE I could search news messages for a keyword in a
way where after pressing a button I could jump to the next message that
contains the keyword. In TB searching always hides messages that don't
fit the search, just jumping to the next fitting message while having
all messages listed is not possible.
- And why the hell is "answer to newsgroup" not the first item in the
context menu when right-clicking on a newsgroup posting but has to be
third (after "open in new window" and "reply to sender")? Even after two
years it often happens that I mistakenly send a message to the sender
instead of to the group. The most logical way would be that "answer to
newsgroup" is the first item when using news.

What I would like to know is if these (or at least some) of these issues
will be addressed in a upcoming Thunderbird release (TB 2?).
Thunderbird is a really nice program but these things are really
annoying and IMHO should not be present any more.

Another issue I have with Thunderbird is that it's slow like hell. I
attend to around 90 newsgroups and have lots of mail. Sometimes when
clicking of another newsgroup or just another posting TB just does
nothing for up 10s. After that it often happens that TB minimizes
itself. My system: HP xw9300 2x XEON 3.6GHz, 13GB DDR2 ECC, 3x 250GB
SATA as RAID0 on a Promise SX4300 PCI-X SATA RAID controller, Windowsxp
Pro x64 with latest updates). This has happend with all TB releases I've
been using, it's also doing that on my notebook. And no, it's neither a
worm/virus or a antivirus program or any other application that is
causing this.

Benjamin

Benjamin Gawert

Benjamin Gawert wrote:
> After using OE for mai and news (yes, OE can be used for posting
> correctly with some additional utility) for years I switched to
> Thunderbird around 2 years ago. The main reason was that OE data backup
> is simply terrible, with TB I just can backup the data folder and have
> everything I need.
>
> However, there are several things in newsgroup handling that really
> annoy me, and when searching newsgroups and forums I also found that I'm
> not the only one who is annoyed. My main critics are:
>
> - Messages sorted as threaded by reference (TB can show messages
> threaded but if set to sort by date then it sorts them for the date of
> the oldest/latest message and not the oldest/latest reference message.
> As a result the order of thread gets mixed as soon as a new message is
> downloaded).
> - Thread expansion: OE could be set to show all threads expanded by
> default. With TB I always have to expand threads manually, and even if I
> expanded all threads in a newsgroup new threads will be shown collapsed.
> There should be an option that allows setting to show all threads
> expanded by default.
> - Alphabetical newsgroup listing: in OE subscribed newsgroups are listed
> alphabetically. TB lists groups in the order they are subscribed to.
> When using lots of groups this is really annoying. There should be an
> option to sort them alphabetically.
> - X-posted messages: in OE, if you read a message that was x-posted in
> several groups in one group it would show as "read" in other groups. In
> TB the same message gets "read" in the group you read it but is still
> marked as "unread" in all other groups.
> - Search field in newsgroup subscribe window can only use one keyword
> (in OE you can use multiple keywords).
> - Search function: in OE I could search news messages for a keyword in a
> way where after pressing a button I could jump to the next message that
> contains the keyword. In TB searching always hides messages that don't
> fit the search, just jumping to the next fitting message while having
> all messages listed is not possible.
> - And why the hell is "answer to newsgroup" not the first item in the
> context menu when right-clicking on a newsgroup posting but has to be
> third (after "open in new window" and "reply to sender")? Even after two
> years it often happens that I mistakenly send a message to the sender
> instead of to the group. The most logical way would be that "answer to
> newsgroup" is the first item when using news.
>
> What I would like to know is if these (or at least some) of these issues
> will be addressed in a upcoming Thunderbird release (TB 2?).
> Thunderbird is a really nice program but these things are really
> annoying and IMHO should not be present any more.
>
> Another issue I have with Thunderbird is that it's slow like hell. I
> attend to around 90 newsgroups and have lots of mail. Sometimes when
> clicking of another newsgroup or just another posting TB just does
> nothing for up 10s. After that it often happens that TB minimizes
> itself. My system: HP xw9300 2x XEON 3.6GHz, 13GB DDR2 ECC, 3x 250GB
> SATA as RAID0 on a Promise SX4300 PCI-X SATA RAID controller, Windowsxp
> Pro x64 with latest updates). This has happend with all TB releases I've
> been using, it's also doing that on my notebook. And no, it's neither a
> worm/virus or a antivirus program or any other application that is
> causing this.
>
> Benjamin

A better place to get answers to all your questions might be

news://news.mozilla.org/mozilla.support.thunderbird

I shall attempt to answer your concerns as best I can

I dont see the issue you claim with regards to threading at all, I
habitually view by threaded and they are listed per thread by date.

You can expand all threads by simply using the \ key

You can sort newsgroups into any order you choose
> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Sorting_newsgroups


Marking of cross posted messages is a common complaint. There is a bug
with regards to this issue

Search capabilities are indeed being worked on

Reply to Newsgroup IS the default if you simply click Reply while in a
newsgroup. Use of the icon/toolbar gives you the default you prefer it
seems in this case. Instead of right clicking the message, simply hit
Reply at the top of the page.

Slowness issues. Have you emptied the trash and compressed folders
recently? This clears up the 'deadwood' from the files, and can have a
great influence on some speed issues. Thunderbird should never minimize
itself, there must be something in your system that is contributing to
this problem. You might wish to post to the newsgroup listed above and
get a more precise answer on this issue (my forte is Macintosh sorry)

Benjamin Gawert wrote:
> After using OE for mai and news (yes, OE can be used for posting
> correctly with some additional utility) for years I switched to
> Thunderbird around 2 years ago. The main reason was that OE data backup
> is simply terrible, with TB I just can backup the data folder and have
> everything I need.
>
> However, there are several things in newsgroup handling that really
> annoy me, and when searching newsgroups and forums I also found that I'm
> not the only one who is annoyed. My main critics are:
>
> - Messages sorted as threaded by reference (TB can show messages
> threaded but if set to sort by date then it sorts them for the date of
> the oldest/latest message and not the oldest/latest reference message.
> As a result the order of thread gets mixed as soon as a new message is
> downloaded).
> - Thread expansion: OE could be set to show all threads expanded by
> default. With TB I always have to expand threads manually, and even if I
> expanded all threads in a newsgroup new threads will be shown collapsed.
> There should be an option that allows setting to show all threads
> expanded by default.
> - Alphabetical newsgroup listing: in OE subscribed newsgroups are listed
> alphabetically. TB lists groups in the order they are subscribed to.
> When using lots of groups this is really annoying. There should be an
> option to sort them alphabetically.
> - X-posted messages: in OE, if you read a message that was x-posted in
> several groups in one group it would show as "read" in other groups. In
> TB the same message gets "read" in the group you read it but is still
> marked as "unread" in all other groups.
> - Search field in newsgroup subscribe window can only use one keyword
> (in OE you can use multiple keywords).
> - Search function: in OE I could search news messages for a keyword in a
> way where after pressing a button I could jump to the next message that
> contains the keyword. In TB searching always hides messages that don't
> fit the search, just jumping to the next fitting message while having
> all messages listed is not possible.
> - And why the hell is "answer to newsgroup" not the first item in the
> context menu when right-clicking on a newsgroup posting but has to be
> third (after "open in new window" and "reply to sender")? Even after two
> years it often happens that I mistakenly send a message to the sender
> instead of to the group. The most logical way would be that "answer to
> newsgroup" is the first item when using news.
>
> What I would like to know is if these (or at least some) of these issues
> will be addressed in a upcoming Thunderbird release (TB 2?).
> Thunderbird is a really nice program but these things are really
> annoying and IMHO should not be present any more.
>
> Another issue I have with Thunderbird is that it's slow like hell. I
> attend to around 90 newsgroups and have lots of mail. Sometimes when
> clicking of another newsgroup or just another posting TB just does
> nothing for up 10s. After that it often happens that TB minimizes
> itself. My system: HP xw9300 2x XEON 3.6GHz, 13GB DDR2 ECC, 3x 250GB
> SATA as RAID0 on a Promise SX4300 PCI-X SATA RAID controller, Windowsxp
> Pro x64 with latest updates). This has happend with all TB releases I've
> been using, it's also doing that on my notebook. And no, it's neither a
> worm/virus or a antivirus program or any other application that is
> causing this.
>
> Benjamin

A better place to get answers to all your questions might be

news://news.mozilla.org/mozilla.support.thunderbird

I shall attempt to answer your concerns as best I can

I dont see the issue you claim with regards to threading at all, I
habitually view by threaded and they are listed per thread by date.

You can expand all threads by simply using the \ key

You can sort newsgroups into any order you choose
> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Sorting_newsgroups


Marking of cross posted messages is a common complaint. There is a bug
with regards to this issue

Search capabilities are indeed being worked on

Reply to Newsgroup IS the default if you simply click Reply while in a
newsgroup. Use of the icon/toolbar gives you the default you prefer it
seems in this case. Instead of right clicking the message, simply hit
Reply at the top of the page.

Slowness issues. Have you emptied the trash and compressed folders
recently? This clears up the 'deadwood' from the files, and can have a
great influence on some speed issues. Thunderbird should never minimize
itself, there must be something in your system that is contributing to
this problem. You might wish to post to the newsgroup listed above and
get a more precise answer on this issue (my forte is Macintosh sorry)

* Moz Champion (Dan):

> A better place to get answers to all your questions might be
>
> news://news.mozilla.org/mozilla.support.thunderbird

Thanks, I'll try it there...

> I shall attempt to answer your concerns as best I can
>
> I dont see the issue you claim with regards to threading at all, I
> habitually view by threaded and they are listed per thread by date.

Yes. But OE sorts the date by the date of the first message of a thread
(reference message) and puts the answers to that thread in chronological
order below the reference message. TB also keeps messages of a thread
together but the date sorting is by _every_ message and not only by the
reference message.

The result is that with TB a thread that now is on top suddenly gets
pushed down by a several weeks old thread just because this old thread
got a single new posting.

Threaded by Reference is probably one of the most demanded features that
people coming from OE miss.

> You can expand all threads by simply using the \ key

Right, but I have to do that again and again. Even if I expanded all
threads in a newsgroup a few minutes later all threads that arrived
after that are still shown collapsed. There should be a way to alter
that behavior.

> You can sort newsgroups into any order you choose
>> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Sorting_newsgroups

Thanks, that's at least a way. But I find it a bit poor that it's
necessary to edit a file by hand for that.

> Marking of cross posted messages is a common complaint. There is a bug
> with regards to this issue

This "bug" is already there since the first Mozilla versions. It doesn't
seem to have any priority...

> Search capabilities are indeed being worked on

That's good to hear...

> Reply to Newsgroup IS the default if you simply click Reply while in a
> newsgroup. Use of the icon/toolbar gives you the default you prefer it
> seems in this case. Instead of right clicking the message, simply hit
> Reply at the top of the page.

I know. But it's much more comfortable to use the context menu. And
logically the first menu entry should be "reply to newsgroup".

> Slowness issues. Have you emptied the trash and compressed folders
> recently?

Yes, several times. Didn't help.

> This clears up the 'deadwood' from the files, and can have a
> great influence on some speed issues. Thunderbird should never minimize
> itself, there must be something in your system that is contributing to
> this problem.

Well, I'm using TB on eight different systems with different Windows
versions, and all show that behavior...

> You might wish to post to the newsgroup listed above and
> get a more precise answer on this issue (my forte is Macintosh sorry)

I'll try it there. Thanks for your help.

Benjamin

* Moz Champion (Dan):

> A better place to get answers to all your questions might be
>
> news://news.mozilla.org/mozilla.support.thunderbird

Thanks, I'll try it there...

> I shall attempt to answer your concerns as best I can
>
> I dont see the issue you claim with regards to threading at all, I
> habitually view by threaded and they are listed per thread by date.

Yes. But OE sorts the date by the date of the first message of a thread
(reference message) and puts the answers to that thread in chronological
order below the reference message. TB also keeps messages of a thread
together but the date sorting is by _every_ message and not only by the
reference message.

The result is that with TB a thread that now is on top suddenly gets
pushed down by a several weeks old thread just because this old thread
got a single new posting.

Threaded by Reference is probably one of the most demanded features that
people coming from OE miss.

> You can expand all threads by simply using the \ key

Right, but I have to do that again and again. Even if I expanded all
threads in a newsgroup a few minutes later all threads that arrived
after that are still shown collapsed. There should be a way to alter
that behavior.

> You can sort newsgroups into any order you choose
>> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Sorting_newsgroups

Thanks, that's at least a way. But I find it a bit poor that it's
necessary to edit a file by hand for that.

> Marking of cross posted messages is a common complaint. There is a bug
> with regards to this issue

This "bug" is already there since the first Mozilla versions. It doesn't
seem to have any priority...

> Search capabilities are indeed being worked on

That's good to hear...

> Reply to Newsgroup IS the default if you simply click Reply while in a
> newsgroup. Use of the icon/toolbar gives you the default you prefer it
> seems in this case. Instead of right clicking the message, simply hit
> Reply at the top of the page.

I know. But it's much more comfortable to use the context menu. And
logically the first menu entry should be "reply to newsgroup".

> Slowness issues. Have you emptied the trash and compressed folders
> recently?

Yes, several times. Didn't help.

> This clears up the 'deadwood' from the files, and can have a
> great influence on some speed issues. Thunderbird should never minimize
> itself, there must be something in your system that is contributing to
> this problem.

Well, I'm using TB on eight different systems with different Windows
versions, and all show that behavior...

> You might wish to post to the newsgroup listed above and
> get a more precise answer on this issue (my forte is Macintosh sorry)

I'll try it there. Thanks for your help.

Benjamin

Moz Champion (Dan) ha scritto:
> You can sort newsgroups into any order you choose
>> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Sorting_newsgroups
To alphabetically sort NGs you might also try this extension, use at your
own risk. It works for me (XP home on TB 1.504, italian), needs restarting
TB after every use.
http://www.adematteis.net/mozext/sortgroups011.xpi
(homepage here, in Italian
http://ow2.adematteis.net/page/mozil...groups?from=50)

--
~batintherain

Moz Champion (Dan) ha scritto:
> You can sort newsgroups into any order you choose
>> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Sorting_newsgroups
To alphabetically sort NGs you might also try this extension, use at your
own risk. It works for me (XP home on TB 1.504, italian), needs restarting
TB after every use.
http://www.adematteis.net/mozext/sortgroups011.xpi
(homepage here, in Italian
http://ow2.adematteis.net/page/mozil...groups?from=50)

--
~batintherain