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What equipment needed for DS3?

 
 
SysAdmin
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      10-26-2003
Hi All.

What exact equipment would I need to place on both ends of a DS3?

On side A it would be an Ethernet 10MB handoff routing 2 class C blocks
over a DS3 to side B.

Side B is a few webservers, dialup modem pools, wireless customers,
ethernet customers, etc.

I want to use Cisco but have little experience with it. Need something
reliable and affordable.

Also, its important to have 100MB ethernet interfaces on both side
because I might bump this to 100MB if necessary.

Thank you!!


 
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Jesper Skriver
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      10-26-2003
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:23:27 -0500, SysAdmin wrote:
> Hi All.
>
> What exact equipment would I need to place on both ends of a DS3?
>
> On side A it would be an Ethernet 10MB handoff routing 2 class C blocks
> over a DS3 to side B.
>
> Side B is a few webservers, dialup modem pools, wireless customers,
> ethernet customers, etc.
>
> I want to use Cisco but have little experience with it. Need something
> reliable and affordable.
>
> Also, its important to have 100MB ethernet interfaces on both side
> because I might bump this to 100MB if necessary.


The cheapest is probably a 3725 with a NM-1A-DS3 in each end, a
more scaleable solution would be a 7200 with PA-T3, with this solution
you would also not have the ATM overhead of about 10-15%

--
Jesper Skriver, CCIE #5456, FreeBSD committer
 
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Walter Roberson
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      10-26-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
SysAdmin <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: What exact equipment would I need to place on both ends of a DS3?

Others will need to chime in with the finer nuances, as I have no DS3
experience myself.

: On side A it would be an Ethernet 10MB handoff routing 2 class C blocks
ver a DS3 to side B.

: Side B is a few webservers, dialup modem pools, wireless customers,
:ethernet customers, etc.

: I want to use Cisco but have little experience with it. Need something
:reliable and affordable.

: Also, its important to have 100MB ethernet interfaces on both side
:because I might bump this to 100MB if necessary.

You can get DS3 modules for the Cisco 2600 and 3600 series, which are
relatively low end for Cisco. I notice, though, that all of the DS3
options listed for Cisco equipment are listed as being ATM network
modules. The 2600/3600 will handle the modules, but the implication
is that your line is going to have to be provisioned as ATM, which
surely will be fairly expensive.

http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/...t/atne__p2.htm


Are you going to be running voice or video over the line? If you are
not planning to do so, then it might be a lot more cost
effective to go with a fast packet-switched fibre option that doesn't
promise in-hour packet delivery.

DS3 is 44.736 Mbps, but you plan to feed it with 10 Mbps, and you made
no mention of multimedia. Hmmm. What factors led you to DS3 instead
of other technologies?

I don't have any current prices for DS3 service, but the last time we
had DS3 (about 3 years ago), the price was about $US5000 per month,
which is about 4 times the price of a Cisco 2621 router itself (about
$US1700). The NM-1A-T3 DS3 adapter will cost you about $US4300, so
you are looking at about $US6000 per end for the equipment,
giving you a First Year running cost up to about $US72000 (obviously
highly dependant on the DS3 costs.)

The phrasing of your posting somehow suggests to me that you have
LAN experience, but that you might not have much WAN experience,
and aren't expecting anything even -close- to the costs I've just noted.
When you are working with DS3, the question usually isn't "reliable
and affordable" -- the question is usually something more like
"QoS and VOIP and dual power supplies and HSRP and redundancy and latency
less than so-many milliseconds -- oh, and it would be nice if it doesn't
cost 7 arms and 10 legs, but we *need* these features and we'll pay whatever
it takes."

If you just want "a fast link" then there are often alternatives that
might cost considerably less. For example, we saved an amazing amount
by going gigabit fibre... but we don't have any multimedia traffic
worth mentioning.
--
Suppose there was a test you could take that would report whether
you had Free Will or were Pre-Destined. Would you take the test?
 
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Jesper Skriver
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      10-26-2003
On 26 Oct 2003 19:10:52 GMT, Walter Roberson wrote:
>
> You can get DS3 modules for the Cisco 2600 and 3600 series, which are
> relatively low end for Cisco. I notice, though, that all of the DS3
> options listed for Cisco equipment are listed as being ATM network
> modules. The 2600/3600 will handle the modules, but the implication
> is that your line is going to have to be provisioned as ATM, which
> surely will be fairly expensive.
>
> http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/...t/atne__p2.htm


No, it's no problem to use ATM interfaces on a regular p2p DS3
line, it's a bit transparent link, and the ATM cells is just
payload - but it will give some overhead, 10-15%.

> Are you going to be running voice or video over the line? If you are
> not planning to do so, then it might be a lot more cost effective
> to go with a fast packet-switched fibre option that doesn't promise
> in-hour packet delivery.


What do you mean with " fast packet-switched fibre option" ?

--
Jesper Skriver, CCIE #5456, FreeBSD committer
 
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Walter Roberson
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-26-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Jesper Skriver <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
:On 26 Oct 2003 19:10:52 GMT, Walter Roberson wrote:

:> Are you going to be running voice or video over the line? If you are
:> not planning to do so, then it might be a lot more cost effective
:> to go with a fast packet-switched fibre option that doesn't promise
:> in-hour packet delivery.

:What do you mean with " fast packet-switched fibre option" ?

Gah, what did I mean by "in-hour packet delivery" ? ;=)

I meant something like a burstable ethernet-over-fibre link, or
a gigabit ethernet-over-fibre link. And I meant "in-order packet
delivery" (DS3 is synchronous point-to-point, some of the alternatives
are not.)
--
The Knights Of The Lambda Calculus aren't dead --this is their normal form!
 
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Terry Baranski
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-26-2003
On 26 Oct 2003 19:10:52 GMT, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)-cnrc.gc.ca (Walter
Roberson) wrote:

>You can get DS3 modules for the Cisco 2600 and 3600 series, which are
>relatively low end for Cisco. I notice, though, that all of the DS3
>options listed for Cisco equipment are listed as being ATM network
>modules. The 2600/3600 will handle the modules, but the implication
>is that your line is going to have to be provisioned as ATM, which
>surely will be fairly expensive.


There are non-ATM T3 modules for these routers. This one has an
integrated DSU:
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/...08010fba2.html

I had thought there was one without an integrated DSU, but perhaps it
was the ATM one I was thinking of. There are also HSSI boards
available for these routers, but I've never been clear on whether or
not they can handle an entire full-duplex DS-3.

Important to note is that, per Cisco, the 3745 is the lowest-end
router that can route at 100Mbps. Something to keep in mind if this
speed may be necessary down the line.

-Terry
 
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Hugo Drax
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-26-2003

"SysAdmin" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Hi All.
>
> What exact equipment would I need to place on both ends of a DS3?
>
> On side A it would be an Ethernet 10MB handoff routing 2 class C

blocks
> over a DS3 to side B.
>
> Side B is a few webservers, dialup modem pools, wireless customers,
> ethernet customers, etc.
>
> I want to use Cisco but have little experience with it. Need something
> reliable and affordable.
>
> Also, its important to have 100MB ethernet interfaces on both side
> because I might bump this to 100MB if necessary.
>
> Thank you!!
>
>


You guys are spending the money on DS3's why not include in the budget
someone who can go and set it up for you? Seem silly to go and rig this
together with no experience.


 
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Walter Roberson
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-26-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Terry Baranski <(E-Mail Removed)0VE> wrote:
:Important to note is that, per Cisco, the 3745 is the lowest-end
:router that can route at 100Mbps. Something to keep in mind if this
:speed may be necessary down the line.

The 2621 has dual 10/100 interfaces, so if I understand you correctly,
you are indicating that the 2621 does not actually have the performance
needed to sustain 100 Mbps across that interface pair?

The 2621 is up to 25 Kpps; that would be 100 Mbps if the packets
averaged 500 bytes or longer (possible for data transfer, but
interactive work tends to average much shorter packets). Conversely,
with 64 byte packets, this would be 12.8 Mbps.

The 2651 is up to 37 Kpps; that would take the average down to 338
bytes; 64 byte packets would get 18.9 Mbps.

The 3662 is up to 120 Kpps; that would take the average down to 105
bytes; 64 byte packets would get 61.4 Mbps, so this would seem to be
the smallest of the devices able to handle a full DS3 with 64 byte packets.

The 3745 is up to 225 Kpps; that takes the average down to 56 bytes,
which is more than the 64 byte minimum packet size, so it does seem to
be the smallest of the devices that will handle a full 100 Mbps even
with minimum-sized packets.


One thing I did not check is whether the DS3 module would require
an advanced feature set such as PLUS; if it does, then the price of
the routers could increase noticably.
--
Warhol's Second Law of Usenet: "In the future, everyone will troll
for 15 minutes."
 
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Terry Baranski
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-27-2003
On 26 Oct 2003 21:36:03 GMT, (E-Mail Removed)-cnrc.gc.ca (Walter
Roberson) wrote:

>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>Terry Baranski <(E-Mail Removed)0VE> wrote:
>:Important to note is that, per Cisco, the 3745 is the lowest-end
>:router that can route at 100Mbps. Something to keep in mind if this
>:speed may be necessary down the line.
>
>The 2621 has dual 10/100 interfaces, so if I understand you correctly,
>you are indicating that the 2621 does not actually have the performance
>needed to sustain 100 Mbps across that interface pair?


Right. A 2621 can do over 10Mbps which is why they added 100Mbps
interfaces to the product line, but it can't do a full 100Mbps. I did
some testing with a 2621 that was running CEF and no special features
(like access-lists), and it maxed out at around 40Mbps
(unidirectional) with full-sized packets before the CPU usage went up
to 100%.

>The 2621 is up to 25 Kpps; that would be 100 Mbps if the packets
>averaged 500 bytes or longer (possible for data transfer, but
>interactive work tends to average much shorter packets). Conversely,
>with 64 byte packets, this would be 12.8 Mbps.


Cisco's pps ratings are measured with 64-byte packets. This tends to
be the case with other vendors as well, since smaller packet sizes =
higher pps. Real-world pps is probably less than the Marketing
numbers even with 64-byte packets. But the 2621 example above
illustrates that, not surprisingly, there's a dramatic dropoff in pps
as packet size increases.

>The 3745 is up to 225 Kpps; that takes the average down to 56 bytes,
>which is more than the 64 byte minimum packet size, so it does seem to
>be the smallest of the devices that will handle a full 100 Mbps even
>with minimum-sized packets.


This is something I've been wanting to clarify with Cisco. When I was
told that a 3745 is the lowest-end router than can do 100Mbps, I don't
know if they looked at the pps rating and ran the numbers with 64-byte
packets like you did (i.e., they gave me "the official answer"), or if
the statement applies to full-sized packets as well (from testing that
they've done in-house, perhaps). Do any of the Cisco people that hang
out here have any information on this? Given that a 2621's bandwidth
capability is a few times higher with full-sized packets relative to
64-byte packets, there may be hope that something cheaper than a 3745
can indeed reach 100Mbps given a sufficiently large packet size. But
this also depends on whether or not full-duplex capability is needed;
if so, the necessary bandwidth effectively doubles to 200Mbps for FE
or 90Mbps for a DS3.

-Terry
 
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SysAdmin
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-27-2003
Hi Walter.

I have plenty of DS1 experience but no DS3 experience, so I'm lost.
The ISP we use not (used them for many years) is not providing the
service that we should bet getting. We have only two load-balanced T1s with
them but the max we see is a sluggish 2000k, as opposed to 3,088k

One option is to go with Cogent. They sell a 10M connection in their lit
buildings for $1000.00 (for resellers). The have a 100M connection for
$3000.00/month. Problem is we are not in any lit bldgs. But, our telco is...
and they quoted us 2600.00 for a full DS3 from me to where they and Cogent
both happen to colocate.

10M for a total of 3600.00/month. Good or bad?

Thanks for the info so far!!

"Walter Roberson" <(E-Mail Removed)-cnrc.gc.ca> wrote in message
news:bnh67s$ccn$(E-Mail Removed)...
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> SysAdmin <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> : What exact equipment would I need to place on both ends of a DS3?
>
> Others will need to chime in with the finer nuances, as I have no DS3
> experience myself.
>
> : On side A it would be an Ethernet 10MB handoff routing 2 class C

blocks
> ver a DS3 to side B.
>
> : Side B is a few webservers, dialup modem pools, wireless customers,
> :ethernet customers, etc.
>
> : I want to use Cisco but have little experience with it. Need

something
> :reliable and affordable.
>
> : Also, its important to have 100MB ethernet interfaces on both side
> :because I might bump this to 100MB if necessary.
>
> You can get DS3 modules for the Cisco 2600 and 3600 series, which are
> relatively low end for Cisco. I notice, though, that all of the DS3
> options listed for Cisco equipment are listed as being ATM network
> modules. The 2600/3600 will handle the modules, but the implication
> is that your line is going to have to be provisioned as ATM, which
> surely will be fairly expensive.
>
> http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/...t/atne__p2.htm
>
>
> Are you going to be running voice or video over the line? If you are
> not planning to do so, then it might be a lot more cost
> effective to go with a fast packet-switched fibre option that doesn't
> promise in-hour packet delivery.
>
> DS3 is 44.736 Mbps, but you plan to feed it with 10 Mbps, and you made
> no mention of multimedia. Hmmm. What factors led you to DS3 instead
> of other technologies?
>
> I don't have any current prices for DS3 service, but the last time we
> had DS3 (about 3 years ago), the price was about $US5000 per month,
> which is about 4 times the price of a Cisco 2621 router itself (about
> $US1700). The NM-1A-T3 DS3 adapter will cost you about $US4300, so
> you are looking at about $US6000 per end for the equipment,
> giving you a First Year running cost up to about $US72000 (obviously
> highly dependant on the DS3 costs.)
>
> The phrasing of your posting somehow suggests to me that you have
> LAN experience, but that you might not have much WAN experience,
> and aren't expecting anything even -close- to the costs I've just noted.
> When you are working with DS3, the question usually isn't "reliable
> and affordable" -- the question is usually something more like
> "QoS and VOIP and dual power supplies and HSRP and redundancy and latency
> less than so-many milliseconds -- oh, and it would be nice if it doesn't
> cost 7 arms and 10 legs, but we *need* these features and we'll pay

whatever
> it takes."
>
> If you just want "a fast link" then there are often alternatives that
> might cost considerably less. For example, we saved an amazing amount
> by going gigabit fibre... but we don't have any multimedia traffic
> worth mentioning.
> --
> Suppose there was a test you could take that would report whether
> you had Free Will or were Pre-Destined. Would you take the test?



 
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