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Ink Jet Prints Problems

 
 
Marshall Thurman
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      08-15-2004


Ink Jet Prints Problems:

I have noticed something with my ink jet prints and wonder if
anybody else is having the same problem. I am at present using an
Epson 1280 and only use Epson inks in the printer. I do use
several brands of paper. Epson when I can find it but I have
used Ilford and as of late Kodak Ultra premium. I have
noticed my prints seem to fade with the passage of a short period of
time. Say six months. I have taken new prints and covered half of the
image with a piece of acid free paper and put them up out of the way.
Never in bright or direct light. After a while the uncovered side
has faded until there is a line visible. The room I do this in is
not very bright and when I placed one in the dinning room which is
much bright brighter with indirect sunlight the fading is much worst.
I have taken an 8x12 color print from Walmart and am doing the same
test with it. After almost two years I have noticed no change in the
machine prints brightness. The manufactures of ink jet machine claim
that the prints are long lasting but I have not found that to be true
in my experiences. Is anybody else noticed this problem?

Marshall Thurman

 
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Jim
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      08-15-2004

"Marshall Thurman" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:BD450AF8.103E79%(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>
> Ink Jet Prints Problems:
> in my experiences. Is anybody else noticed this problem?

Not me. The only combination of paper and ink that faded on me was Minolta
paper and Epson Photo 700 ink. My 1280 prints look fine even after 3 years.
I do put them under glass which helps get rid of the ultra violet light.
Jim


 
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Clyde
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-15-2004
Marshall Thurman wrote:
>
> Ink Jet Prints Problems:
>
> I have noticed something with my ink jet prints and wonder if
> anybody else is having the same problem. I am at present using an
> Epson 1280 and only use Epson inks in the printer. I do use
> several brands of paper. Epson when I can find it but I have
> used Ilford and as of late Kodak Ultra premium. I have
> noticed my prints seem to fade with the passage of a short period of
> time. Say six months. I have taken new prints and covered half of the
> image with a piece of acid free paper and put them up out of the way.
> Never in bright or direct light. After a while the uncovered side
> has faded until there is a line visible. The room I do this in is
> not very bright and when I placed one in the dinning room which is
> much bright brighter with indirect sunlight the fading is much worst.
> I have taken an 8x12 color print from Walmart and am doing the same
> test with it. After almost two years I have noticed no change in the
> machine prints brightness. The manufactures of ink jet machine claim
> that the prints are long lasting but I have not found that to be true
> in my experiences. Is anybody else noticed this problem?
>
> Marshall Thurman
>


You need to read a lot more. Yes, lots of people have noticed this
problem. It has been much talked about in print and on the Internet for
as many years as there have been ink jet printers.

Yes, the technology is getting better, but it's not perfect yet. With
the right combinations of paper, ink, storage, and display, prints can
be truly "long lasting" now. Twenty five, 50, or even 100 years should
do it. However, it really has to be the right combination.

For example, your dye based Epson inks on your 1280 will last quite
awhile on some Epson papers. Of course, they need to be displayed under
glass, not out in the open like you are doing. They may or may not do as
well on Ilford and Kodak papers. Alas, it's hard to find good tests done
on 3rd party papers. OTOH, you will get quick fading on other papers.

The pigmented inks on my Epson R800 should last much longer on most
papers. However, there are some papers it wouldn't be good on at all.
These inks aren't as affected by light, but there can still be a gas
problem that is helped by display under glass.

Yes, it's a well know and over debated issue. Yes, it's getting better.
No, it's not perfect. However, it's way better than is was a few years ago.

Now the next problem is getting all the techno geeks who rant about this
to make images that any one will care if it lasts 50 or 100 years.

Clyde
 
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Bill Hilton
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-15-2004
>From: Marshall Thurman http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)

> I have noticed something with my ink jet prints and wonder if
> anybody else is having the same problem. I am at present using an
> Epson 1280 and only use Epson inks in the printer. I do use
> several brands of paper. Epson when I can find it but I have
> used Ilford and as of late Kodak Ultra premium. I have
> noticed my prints seem to fade with the passage of a short period of
> time. Say six months.
>
>The manufactures of ink jet machine claim
> that the prints are long lasting but I have not found that to be true
> in my experiences. Is anybody else noticed this problem?


The ink jet manufacturers like Epson and Canon primarily use the testing
methods of Henry Wilhelm, who tests inkjets and traditional photo papers to the
same set of conditions. The longevity estimates assume the prints are
displayed under glass in certain temperature, humidity and light-intensity
conditions and are based on accelerated testing.

For the Epson 1280 results of these tests ranged from 26 years for the
ColorLife paper down to 6 months for Glossy Film. The Ilford and Kodak papers
weren't tested but likely would do poor in a longevity test with these inks.

The 1280 also had a problem with gas-fastness (as opposed to light-fastness) in
some environments, especially with glossy papers, and that's likely what you
are seeing. Some of these prints had an orange-shift in a matter of days.

For more info check these sites:
http://www.inkjetart.com/news/longevity/index.html
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/...61,pg,1,00.asp
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/

You can download Wilhelm's book in PDF format if you want to learn more about
the testing methods.

Bottom line is that to get good longevity results you need to stick with paper
and ink combos that have been tested and then display the prints in similar
conditions to the test assumptions, ie, under glass etc.

Bill


 
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Ron Hunter
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-15-2004
Marshall Thurman wrote:

>
> Ink Jet Prints Problems:
>
> I have noticed something with my ink jet prints and wonder if
> anybody else is having the same problem. I am at present using an
> Epson 1280 and only use Epson inks in the printer. I do use
> several brands of paper. Epson when I can find it but I have
> used Ilford and as of late Kodak Ultra premium. I have
> noticed my prints seem to fade with the passage of a short period of
> time. Say six months. I have taken new prints and covered half of the
> image with a piece of acid free paper and put them up out of the way.
> Never in bright or direct light. After a while the uncovered side
> has faded until there is a line visible. The room I do this in is
> not very bright and when I placed one in the dinning room which is
> much bright brighter with indirect sunlight the fading is much worst.
> I have taken an 8x12 color print from Walmart and am doing the same
> test with it. After almost two years I have noticed no change in the
> machine prints brightness. The manufactures of ink jet machine claim
> that the prints are long lasting but I have not found that to be true
> in my experiences. Is anybody else noticed this problem?
>
> Marshall Thurman
>

Perhaps you have a really corrosive atmosphere. I have a print on photo
paper printed with regular ink several (at least 5) years ago in my
guest room. It looks the same as the day it was printed. It IS behind
glass.
 
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Ken Scharf
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-16-2004
Ron Hunter wrote:
> Marshall Thurman wrote:
>
>>
>> Ink Jet Prints Problems:
>>
>> I have noticed something with my ink jet prints and wonder if
>> anybody else is having the same problem. I am at present using an
>> Epson 1280 and only use Epson inks in the printer. I do use
>> several brands of paper. Epson when I can find it but I have
>> used Ilford and as of late Kodak Ultra premium. I have
>> noticed my prints seem to fade with the passage of a short
>> period of
>> time. Say six months. I have taken new prints and covered half
>> of the
>> image with a piece of acid free paper and put them up out of
>> the way.
>> Never in bright or direct light. After a while the uncovered side
>> has faded until there is a line visible. The room I do this in is
>> not very bright and when I placed one in the dinning room which is
>> much bright brighter with indirect sunlight the fading is much
>> worst.
>> I have taken an 8x12 color print from Walmart and am doing the
>> same
>> test with it. After almost two years I have noticed no change
>> in the
>> machine prints brightness. The manufactures of ink jet machine
>> claim
>> that the prints are long lasting but I have not found that to
>> be true
>> in my experiences. Is anybody else noticed this problem?
>>
>> Marshall Thurman
>>

> Perhaps you have a really corrosive atmosphere. I have a print on photo
> paper printed with regular ink several (at least 5) years ago in my
> guest room. It looks the same as the day it was printed. It IS behind
> glass.

While glass does filter out UV to some extent, framing a mounted
photo behind glass also creates an almost air tight seal. This may
be what actually preserves the ink (though keeping it in darkness
probably would help).
 
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Paul J Gans
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-16-2004
Clyde <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Marshall Thurman wrote:
>>
>> Ink Jet Prints Problems:
>>
>> I have noticed something with my ink jet prints and wonder if
>> anybody else is having the same problem. I am at present using an
>> Epson 1280 and only use Epson inks in the printer. I do use
>> several brands of paper. Epson when I can find it but I have
>> used Ilford and as of late Kodak Ultra premium. I have
>> noticed my prints seem to fade with the passage of a short period of
>> time. Say six months. I have taken new prints and covered half of the
>> image with a piece of acid free paper and put them up out of the way.
>> Never in bright or direct light. After a while the uncovered side
>> has faded until there is a line visible. The room I do this in is
>> not very bright and when I placed one in the dinning room which is
>> much bright brighter with indirect sunlight the fading is much worst.
>> I have taken an 8x12 color print from Walmart and am doing the same
>> test with it. After almost two years I have noticed no change in the
>> machine prints brightness. The manufactures of ink jet machine claim
>> that the prints are long lasting but I have not found that to be true
>> in my experiences. Is anybody else noticed this problem?
>>
>> Marshall Thurman
>>


>You need to read a lot more. Yes, lots of people have noticed this
>problem. It has been much talked about in print and on the Internet for
>as many years as there have been ink jet printers.


>Yes, the technology is getting better, but it's not perfect yet. With
>the right combinations of paper, ink, storage, and display, prints can
>be truly "long lasting" now. Twenty five, 50, or even 100 years should
>do it. However, it really has to be the right combination.


>For example, your dye based Epson inks on your 1280 will last quite
>awhile on some Epson papers. Of course, they need to be displayed under
>glass, not out in the open like you are doing. They may or may not do as
>well on Ilford and Kodak papers. Alas, it's hard to find good tests done
>on 3rd party papers. OTOH, you will get quick fading on other papers.


>The pigmented inks on my Epson R800 should last much longer on most
>papers. However, there are some papers it wouldn't be good on at all.
>These inks aren't as affected by light, but there can still be a gas
>problem that is helped by display under glass.


>Yes, it's a well know and over debated issue. Yes, it's getting better.
>No, it's not perfect. However, it's way better than is was a few years ago.


>Now the next problem is getting all the techno geeks who rant about this
>to make images that any one will care if it lasts 50 or 100 years.


Well, I will. Not because I'll be around but because I
cherish pictures taken of my great grandfather in 1910.
I'd hope that some of mine will be around in 2010.

---- Paul J. Gans
 
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Ron Hunter
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-16-2004
Paul J Gans wrote:
> Clyde <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>Marshall Thurman wrote:
>>
>>> Ink Jet Prints Problems:
>>>
>>> I have noticed something with my ink jet prints and wonder if
>>> anybody else is having the same problem. I am at present using an
>>> Epson 1280 and only use Epson inks in the printer. I do use
>>> several brands of paper. Epson when I can find it but I have
>>> used Ilford and as of late Kodak Ultra premium. I have
>>> noticed my prints seem to fade with the passage of a short period of
>>> time. Say six months. I have taken new prints and covered half of the
>>> image with a piece of acid free paper and put them up out of the way.
>>> Never in bright or direct light. After a while the uncovered side
>>> has faded until there is a line visible. The room I do this in is
>>> not very bright and when I placed one in the dinning room which is
>>> much bright brighter with indirect sunlight the fading is much worst.
>>> I have taken an 8x12 color print from Walmart and am doing the same
>>> test with it. After almost two years I have noticed no change in the
>>> machine prints brightness. The manufactures of ink jet machine claim
>>> that the prints are long lasting but I have not found that to be true
>>> in my experiences. Is anybody else noticed this problem?
>>>
>>> Marshall Thurman
>>>

>
>
>>You need to read a lot more. Yes, lots of people have noticed this
>>problem. It has been much talked about in print and on the Internet for
>>as many years as there have been ink jet printers.

>
>
>>Yes, the technology is getting better, but it's not perfect yet. With
>>the right combinations of paper, ink, storage, and display, prints can
>>be truly "long lasting" now. Twenty five, 50, or even 100 years should
>>do it. However, it really has to be the right combination.

>
>
>>For example, your dye based Epson inks on your 1280 will last quite
>>awhile on some Epson papers. Of course, they need to be displayed under
>>glass, not out in the open like you are doing. They may or may not do as
>>well on Ilford and Kodak papers. Alas, it's hard to find good tests done
>>on 3rd party papers. OTOH, you will get quick fading on other papers.

>
>
>>The pigmented inks on my Epson R800 should last much longer on most
>>papers. However, there are some papers it wouldn't be good on at all.
>>These inks aren't as affected by light, but there can still be a gas
>>problem that is helped by display under glass.

>
>
>>Yes, it's a well know and over debated issue. Yes, it's getting better.
>>No, it's not perfect. However, it's way better than is was a few years ago.

>
>
>>Now the next problem is getting all the techno geeks who rant about this
>>to make images that any one will care if it lasts 50 or 100 years.

>
>
> Well, I will. Not because I'll be around but because I
> cherish pictures taken of my great grandfather in 1910.
> I'd hope that some of mine will be around in 2010.
>
> ---- Paul J. Gans


I am quite sure mine will be around that long. I have at least one in
my wallet that is at least 6 years old and still looks the same as when
I printed it.
 
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Clyde
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-16-2004
Ron Hunter wrote:
> Paul J Gans wrote:
>
>> Clyde <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> Marshall Thurman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ink Jet Prints Problems:
>>>>
>>>> I have noticed something with my ink jet prints and wonder if
>>>> anybody else is having the same problem. I am at present using an
>>>> Epson 1280 and only use Epson inks in the printer. I do use
>>>> several brands of paper. Epson when I can find it but I have
>>>> used Ilford and as of late Kodak Ultra premium. I have
>>>> noticed my prints seem to fade with the passage of a short
>>>> period of
>>>> time. Say six months. I have taken new prints and covered half
>>>> of the
>>>> image with a piece of acid free paper and put them up out of
>>>> the way.
>>>> Never in bright or direct light. After a while the uncovered side
>>>> has faded until there is a line visible. The room I do this in is
>>>> not very bright and when I placed one in the dinning room
>>>> which is
>>>> much bright brighter with indirect sunlight the fading is much
>>>> worst.
>>>> I have taken an 8x12 color print from Walmart and am doing the
>>>> same
>>>> test with it. After almost two years I have noticed no change
>>>> in the
>>>> machine prints brightness. The manufactures of ink jet machine
>>>> claim
>>>> that the prints are long lasting but I have not found that to
>>>> be true
>>>> in my experiences. Is anybody else noticed this problem?
>>>>
>>>> Marshall Thurman
>>>>

>>
>>
>>> You need to read a lot more. Yes, lots of people have noticed this
>>> problem. It has been much talked about in print and on the Internet
>>> for as many years as there have been ink jet printers.

>>
>>
>>
>>> Yes, the technology is getting better, but it's not perfect yet. With
>>> the right combinations of paper, ink, storage, and display, prints
>>> can be truly "long lasting" now. Twenty five, 50, or even 100 years
>>> should do it. However, it really has to be the right combination.

>>
>>
>>
>>> For example, your dye based Epson inks on your 1280 will last quite
>>> awhile on some Epson papers. Of course, they need to be displayed
>>> under glass, not out in the open like you are doing. They may or may
>>> not do as well on Ilford and Kodak papers. Alas, it's hard to find
>>> good tests done on 3rd party papers. OTOH, you will get quick fading
>>> on other papers.

>>
>>
>>
>>> The pigmented inks on my Epson R800 should last much longer on most
>>> papers. However, there are some papers it wouldn't be good on at all.
>>> These inks aren't as affected by light, but there can still be a gas
>>> problem that is helped by display under glass.

>>
>>
>>
>>> Yes, it's a well know and over debated issue. Yes, it's getting
>>> better. No, it's not perfect. However, it's way better than is was a
>>> few years ago.

>>
>>
>>
>>> Now the next problem is getting all the techno geeks who rant about
>>> this to make images that any one will care if it lasts 50 or 100 years.

>>
>>
>>
>> Well, I will. Not because I'll be around but because I
>> cherish pictures taken of my great grandfather in 1910.
>> I'd hope that some of mine will be around in 2010.
>>
>> ---- Paul J. Gans

>
>
> I am quite sure mine will be around that long. I have at least one in
> my wallet that is at least 6 years old and still looks the same as when
> I printed it.


I too do a fair number of wedding pictures that someone will probably
want their great-grand kids to see. I'm not sure they will from today's
prints, but I'll do the best I can. That's why I also save the files on
gold CDs.

Then again, I see lots of people arguing about the longevity of prints
that may not have been worth the paper in the short term.

Clyde
 
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Paul J Gans
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-16-2004
Clyde <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Ron Hunter wrote:
>> Paul J Gans wrote:
>>
>>> Clyde <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Marshall Thurman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ink Jet Prints Problems:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have noticed something with my ink jet prints and wonder if
>>>>> anybody else is having the same problem. I am at present using an
>>>>> Epson 1280 and only use Epson inks in the printer. I do use
>>>>> several brands of paper. Epson when I can find it but I have
>>>>> used Ilford and as of late Kodak Ultra premium. I have
>>>>> noticed my prints seem to fade with the passage of a short
>>>>> period of
>>>>> time. Say six months. I have taken new prints and covered half
>>>>> of the
>>>>> image with a piece of acid free paper and put them up out of
>>>>> the way.
>>>>> Never in bright or direct light. After a while the uncovered side
>>>>> has faded until there is a line visible. The room I do this in is
>>>>> not very bright and when I placed one in the dinning room
>>>>> which is
>>>>> much bright brighter with indirect sunlight the fading is much
>>>>> worst.
>>>>> I have taken an 8x12 color print from Walmart and am doing the
>>>>> same
>>>>> test with it. After almost two years I have noticed no change
>>>>> in the
>>>>> machine prints brightness. The manufactures of ink jet machine
>>>>> claim
>>>>> that the prints are long lasting but I have not found that to
>>>>> be true
>>>>> in my experiences. Is anybody else noticed this problem?
>>>>>
>>>>> Marshall Thurman
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> You need to read a lot more. Yes, lots of people have noticed this
>>>> problem. It has been much talked about in print and on the Internet
>>>> for as many years as there have been ink jet printers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yes, the technology is getting better, but it's not perfect yet. With
>>>> the right combinations of paper, ink, storage, and display, prints
>>>> can be truly "long lasting" now. Twenty five, 50, or even 100 years
>>>> should do it. However, it really has to be the right combination.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> For example, your dye based Epson inks on your 1280 will last quite
>>>> awhile on some Epson papers. Of course, they need to be displayed
>>>> under glass, not out in the open like you are doing. They may or may
>>>> not do as well on Ilford and Kodak papers. Alas, it's hard to find
>>>> good tests done on 3rd party papers. OTOH, you will get quick fading
>>>> on other papers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> The pigmented inks on my Epson R800 should last much longer on most
>>>> papers. However, there are some papers it wouldn't be good on at all.
>>>> These inks aren't as affected by light, but there can still be a gas
>>>> problem that is helped by display under glass.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yes, it's a well know and over debated issue. Yes, it's getting
>>>> better. No, it's not perfect. However, it's way better than is was a
>>>> few years ago.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Now the next problem is getting all the techno geeks who rant about
>>>> this to make images that any one will care if it lasts 50 or 100 years.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I will. Not because I'll be around but because I
>>> cherish pictures taken of my great grandfather in 1910.
>>> I'd hope that some of mine will be around in 2010.
>>>
>>> ---- Paul J. Gans

>>
>>
>> I am quite sure mine will be around that long. I have at least one in
>> my wallet that is at least 6 years old and still looks the same as when
>> I printed it.


>I too do a fair number of wedding pictures that someone will probably
>want their great-grand kids to see. I'm not sure they will from today's
>prints, but I'll do the best I can. That's why I also save the files on
>gold CDs.


>Then again, I see lots of people arguing about the longevity of prints
>that may not have been worth the paper in the short term.


I'll agree with that too.

I've got thousands of digital shots, very few of which have
been actually printed. That's one of the beauties of digital.
Instead of worrying about film and printing costs, I just snap 'em
and, if they are terrible, throw them away.

The thousands that remain after that are of limited interest
and live on CDs mostly given to the folks whose events have
been "immortalized".

---- Paul J. Gans
 
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