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Re: Computing's Lost Allure

 
 
Peter de Vroomen
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      06-24-2003
> >but that little
> >piece of paper gives them clout over, for exapmle, a REAL genius with
> >an IQ of 160 and years of experience.


Damn, I'm not a REAL genius, my IQ is just a mere 150 or so .

> One needs social oil in order to smooth out the little interpersonal
> glitches that occur, and be able to keep working together. Without it,
> things break down. And a bunch of employees in that state is useless.
> Getting along with folk is a necessary thing in employment, it is one
> of the required job skills.
>
> One thing industry hasn't figured out yet is how to make good use of
> those who lack social skills.


I think it's a lack of social skills of the industry that they can't make
good use of those who lack social skills... But entrepreneurial people
simply do not have the patience to interact with people who lack social
skills. Imo, this is having a lack of social skills too.

I think it's not having a lack of social skills that make things hard, I
think it's narcisism that makes things go wrong. Entrepreneurs are generally
just as narcisistic as the people he employs, but the entrepreneur does have
social skills and his employees probably not. It's the narcisism that stops
people from listening to each other.

PeterV


 
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Bill Sloman
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      06-24-2003
"Peter de Vroomen" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<3ef87470$0$49101$(E-Mail Removed)4all.nl>...
> > >but that little
> > >piece of paper gives them clout over, for exapmle, a REAL genius with
> > >an IQ of 160 and years of experience.

>
> Damn, I'm not a REAL genius, my IQ is just a mere 150 or so .
>
> > One needs social oil in order to smooth out the little interpersonal
> > glitches that occur, and be able to keep working together. Without it,
> > things break down. And a bunch of employees in that state is useless.
> > Getting along with folk is a necessary thing in employment, it is one
> > of the required job skills.
> >
> > One thing industry hasn't figured out yet is how to make good use of
> > those who lack social skills.

>
> I think it's a lack of social skills of the industry that they can't make
> good use of those who lack social skills... But entrepreneurial people
> simply do not have the patience to interact with people who lack social
> skills. Imo, this is having a lack of social skills too.
>
> I think it's not having a lack of social skills that make things hard, I
> think it's narcisism that makes things go wrong. Entrepreneurs are generally
> just as narcisistic as the people he employs, but the entrepreneur does have
> social skills and his employees probably not. It's the narcisism that stops
> people from listening to each other.


Nah. It boredom. When the entrepreneure starts sounding like a re-run
of a Dilbert cartoon, I have to drink a *lot* of coffee if I'm to
avoid the anti-social and insulting behaviour of going off to sleep.

I have a similar sort of problem with engineers who won't explain why
the detail problem they are tackling is relevant to the goal they are
supposed to be pursueing, but mostly I've been allowed to harry them
into explaining the background.

------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
 
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Bill Sloman
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      06-25-2003

"Don Kelly" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:EV9Ka.277834$(E-Mail Removed) a...
>
>
>
> "Bill Sloman" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> > "Peter de Vroomen" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message

> news:<3ef87470$0$49101$(E-Mail Removed)4all.nl>...
> > > > >but that little
> > > > >piece of paper gives them clout over, for exapmle, a REAL genius

with
> > > > >an IQ of 160 and years of experience.
> > >
> > > Damn, I'm not a REAL genius, my IQ is just a mere 150 or so .
> > >
> > > > One needs social oil in order to smooth out the little interpersonal
> > > > glitches that occur, and be able to keep working together. Without

it,
> > > > things break down. And a bunch of employees in that state is

useless.
> > > > Getting along with folk is a necessary thing in employment, it is

one
> > > > of the required job skills.
> > > >
> > > > One thing industry hasn't figured out yet is how to make good use of
> > > > those who lack social skills.
> > >
> > > I think it's a lack of social skills of the industry that they can't
> > > make good use of those who lack social skills... But entrepreneurial

people
> > > simply do not have the patience to interact with people who lack

social
> > > skills. Imo, this is having a lack of social skills too.
> > >
> > > I think it's not having a lack of social skills that make things hard,

I
> > > think it's narcisism that makes things go wrong. Entrepreneurs are
> > > generally just as narcisistic as the people he employs, but the
> > > entrepreneur does have social skills and his employees probably
> > > not. It's the narcisism that stops people from listening to each

other.
> >
> > Nah. It's boredom. When the entrepreneure starts sounding like a re-run
> > of a Dilbert cartoon, I have to drink a *lot* of coffee if I'm to
> > avoid the anti-social and insulting behaviour of going off to sleep.
> >
> > I have a similar sort of problem with engineers who won't explain why
> > the detail problem they are tackling is relevant to the goal they are
> > supposed to be pursueing, but mostly I've been allowed to harry them
> > into explaining the background.
> >
> > ------
> > Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

> ---------
> But aren't you using social skills to do so?
> I know an engineering management person who put great emphasis on work

ethic
> and social skills. A good but not "brilliant " engineer who had to work

for
> all he learned and who was also able to get along with others on the team,
> was worth far more (in most engineering companies) than a bright(?) star
> who arrogantly ****ed off everybody he contacted. I have seen both.


If you are right about 90% of the time, you do get to be arrogant. You also
learn that being polite and agreeable and suggesting that a duff circuit
"might be improved by these minor changes" is a complete waste of time.

Most "good but not brilliant enginers" can't see where their circuits are
defective, or less than optimal, until they have built them, and are totally
unwilling to junk a couple of days of work because some smart-arse suggests
that there is a better way of doing it.

You have to be pretty rude to get their attention at all, and persuade them
that to persist in their present line of development will lead to them not
only being fired for incompetence, but also becoming the laughing stock of
the industry. This is not a nice way to behave.

I found that I could get away with a few tantrums per year, if I was
extravagantly helpful for the rest of the time, but it was always marginal.

------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen


 
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CBFalconer
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      06-26-2003
Bill Sloman wrote:
> "Don Kelly" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> >

.... snip ...
> >
> > But aren't you using social skills to do so?
> > I know an engineering management person who put great emphasis
> > on work ethic and social skills. A good but not "brilliant "
> > engineer who had to work for all he learned and who was also
> > able to get along with others on the team, was worth far more
> > (in most engineering companies) than a bright(?) star who
> > arrogantly ****ed off everybody he contacted. I have seen both.

>
> If you are right about 90% of the time, you do get to be
> arrogant. You also learn that being polite and agreeable and
> suggesting that a duff circuit "might be improved by these minor
> changes" is a complete waste of time.


Arrogance doesn't help. Sometime a quiet suggestion does. With
other types[1] it simply engenders interior annoyance, and they
look for a way to get revenge. Unfortunately you find this out
about them after they have done their evil deeds, usually by
playing politics. Luckily that kind of person is fairly rare.

The major moral problem is whether or not to let sub-standard work
go uncorrected, even if it not your direct responsibility. That
has to depend highly on where that work is to be used, and your
evaluation of the other guy.

Positive knowledge may often be taken for arrogance.

[1] of human? beings

--
Chuck F ((E-Mail Removed)) ((E-Mail Removed))
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!


 
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Howard Chu
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      06-26-2003

"CBFalconer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Arrogance doesn't help. Sometime a quiet suggestion does.


> Positive knowledge may often be taken for arrogance.


Sad but true. People who don't know better often assert "this is open to
interpretation" about points that are cut-and-dry facts. When faced with
someone who *does* know better, they respond with "how arrogant" when they
themselves are simply being aggressively ignorant.

Reminds me of a time 7 years ago, talking to the DJ at a friend's wedding.
We were talking about music by the Chieftains, and he was pronouncing the
first syllable as in "chef" (sh-schwa sound) instead of as in "chief"
(ch-long e). He was going on and on about how he loves the "chef-tens" and I
finally said "you know, it's pronounced 'Chieftains'." He answered "well,
I've heard it pronounced both ways." Since I had just performed with them a
few months earlier I said "They pronounce it 'Chieftains' - I know, I've
played with them." And of course, a friend who overheard this said to me "my
god, how arrogant." I didn't believe it was arrogant to try to save someone
from going through life with a misconception, or mispronouncing an extremely
well known name in front of an audience that is extremely familiar with
Irish music. In that case, the DJ ignored me. No big loss, aside from some
raised eyebrows here and there.

In my experience, neither "arrogance" (read - assertiveness) nor quiet
suggestions ever help. In the face of persistent ignorance, nothing short of
physical violence (slap in the face, at least) ever gets through. I've also
had to work with people who are faced with an issue and say "I don't know
enough to decide either way." I then tell them "I *know* this is how we
should do it" and they repeat "I don't feel strongly either way." What they
*should* do at that point is just say "OK" and shut up, we've already
established that they are unqualified to make any kind of assertion. But
these people are too clueless to even understand how clueless they are, and
too ignorant to recognize real knowledge and facts when they're confronted
with them.

In this touchy-feely world of warm-and-fuzzy consensus, it's important to
remember that not everything is a matter of opinion, sometimes there *are*
wrong answers, and you should listen when someone tells you that you've got
one. All the consensus in the world won't make feet equal to meters, or make
2+2=5.

What any of this has to do with the main thread, I don't know. But the
comment about arrogance vs positive knowledge really sparked something...
-- Howard Chu

Chief Architect, Symas Corp. Director, Highland Sun

http://www.symas.com http://highlandsun.com/hyc

Symas: Premier OpenSource Development and Support


 
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Paul Burke
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      06-26-2003
Howard Chu wrote:
> it's pronounced 'Chieftains'." He answered "well,
> I've heard it pronounced both ways." Since I had just performed with them a
> few months earlier I said "They pronounce it 'Chieftains' - I know, I've
> played with them."


Well I don't think that's arrogant, it's highly impressive! How many
others in this group play Irish music to any standard? What do you play?
I play flute and a bit of pipes, but the best name I can drop is that
I played with Cathal McConnel at a festival many years ago! (Oh, and I
vaguely knew old Des Donnelly- Dezi's uncle- before he died)

Paul Burke

 
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gswork
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      06-26-2003
"Howard Chu" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<n4yKa.22139$Fy6.7947@sccrnsc03>...
> "CBFalconer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > Arrogance doesn't help. Sometime a quiet suggestion does.

>
> > Positive knowledge may often be taken for arrogance.

>
> Sad but true. People who don't know better often assert "this is open to
> interpretation" about points that are cut-and-dry facts. When faced with
> someone who *does* know better, they respond with "how arrogant" when they
> themselves are simply being aggressively ignorant.
>
> Reminds me of a time 7 years ago, talking to the DJ at a friend's wedding.
> We were talking about music by the Chieftains, and he was pronouncing the
> first syllable as in "chef" (sh-schwa sound) instead of as in "chief"
> (ch-long e). He was going on and on about how he loves the "chef-tens" and I
> finally said "you know, it's pronounced 'Chieftains'."


> -- Howard Chu
>
> Chief Architect, Symas Corp. Director, Highland Sun


^^^ Chef Architect ?

Only Kidding!

>
> http://www.symas.com http://highlandsun.com/hyc
>
> Symas: Premier OpenSource Development and Support

 
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Richard Heathfield
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      06-26-2003
Paul Burke wrote:
>
> Howard Chu wrote:
> > it's pronounced 'Chieftains'." He answered "well,
> > I've heard it pronounced both ways." Since I had just performed with them a
> > few months earlier I said "They pronounce it 'Chieftains' - I know, I've
> > played with them."

>
> Well I don't think that's arrogant, it's highly impressive! How many
> others in this group play Irish music to any standard?


I play Irish music to an appalling standard.

> What do you play?


Guitar, keyboards, both well enough to convince a non-musician that I
can play, and both badly enough to convince a musician that I can't.

I'm better at guitar than at keyboards, I guess, which is why I often
tell the computer to play the keyboards on my behalf.

> I play flute and a bit of pipes, but the best name I can drop is that
> I played with Cathal McConnel at a festival many years ago! (Oh, and I
> vaguely knew old Des Donnelly- Dezi's uncle- before he died)


Hmmm. I once danced with Maddy Prior at a Steeleye Span concert. Does
that count?

--
Richard Heathfield : http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
"Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton


 
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Howard Chu
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      06-27-2003

"Richard Heathfield" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Paul Burke wrote:


> > Well I don't think that's arrogant, it's highly impressive! How many
> > others in this group play Irish music to any standard?

>
> I play Irish music to an appalling standard.


Lol... I didn't know there *was* a standard...

> > What do you play?


Fiddle mostly, some mandolin, anything else tuned the same... I've wandered
all over Ireland but I focus on Donegal repertoire.

> Guitar, keyboards, both well enough to convince a non-musician that I
> can play, and both badly enough to convince a musician that I can't.
>
> I'm better at guitar than at keyboards, I guess, which is why I often
> tell the computer to play the keyboards on my behalf.


Heh. Cheap trick. Though I've been thinking of getting a Zeta MIDI-fiddle
for a while.

> > I play flute and a bit of pipes, but the best name I can drop is that
> > I played with Cathal McConnel at a festival many years ago! (Oh, and I
> > vaguely knew old Des Donnelly- Dezi's uncle- before he died)

>
> Hmmm. I once danced with Maddy Prior at a Steeleye Span concert. Does
> that count?


If we're talking festivals and jam sessions, the list gets pretty long. Get
to the Willie Clancy Festival in Clare and you can run into anyone/everyone.
I met and played with Bobby Casey, PJ Hayes, & Junior Crehan there, as well
as taking a workshop with Martin Hayes. I also first ran into Altan there,
at the Crosses of Annagh pub one night. Was just jamming with Alasdair
Fraser last week at a concert here in LA. (Yes, I like Scottish fiddle too.
Scottish strathspeys and Donegal highlands are the ultimate, as far as I'm
concerned...)

And just to tie this into "computing's lost allure" - I used to spend all my
spare time hacking on computers, until I discovered the fiddle. The one
certainly pales in comparison to the other.
-- Howard Chu http://www.highlandsun.com


 
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Roger Johansson
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      06-29-2003
"Howard Chu" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I've also
>had to work with people who are faced with an issue and say "I don't know
>enough to decide either way." I then tell them "I *know* this is how we
>should do it" and they repeat "I don't feel strongly either way." What they
>*should* do at that point is just say "OK" and shut up, we've already
>established that they are unqualified to make any kind of assertion. But
>these people are too clueless to even understand how clueless they are, and
>too ignorant to recognize real knowledge and facts when they're confronted
>with them.


The problem is in our culture. People are trained to never let anybody
influence their minds, they will fight to the death for their own
opinion, even if they don't have any.
They are taught by the social environment as teenagers to never listen
to advice or accept anybodies arguments, they see other people as
enemies of their state of mind.

The only thing they have respect for is violence.

--
Roger J.
 
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