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DVD and CD ROT: Out of the closet, at last!

 
 
LASERandDVDfan
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      05-12-2004
>> Another possible solution is to make discs with a thicker layer of acrylic
>for
>> the lacquer seal.

>
>Not possible. The tolerences are already alarmingly fine.


A few more microns thicker would not be difficult to pull off. Besides, the
lacquer seal layer is the label side. Adding a thicker layer of acrylic on the
top won't interfere with the pressed polycarbonate layer on the bottom. The
lacquer seal is also applied after the polycarbonate disc is injection-molded
and after the aluminum reflective substrate is sputtered on the disc. -
Reinhart
 
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LASERandDVDfan
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      05-12-2004
>**Hi Reinhart. I have a few questions for you, if you don't mind
>Where do you buy Taiyo Yuden discs?


Maxell distributes Taiyo Yuden discs under their "CD-R PRO" line. Fujifilm
used to distribute Taiyo Yuden media up until they switched suppliers.

Places to check for the Maxell CD-R PRO product include Wal-Mart and Staples.

You can also do an eBay search for Taiyo Yuden to search for Taiyo Yuden CD-R
products. Beware of the seller's feedback rating, though.

>Have you ever used Mitsui?


I have had very limited experience with Mitsui Thermal, unfortunately.
However, their product is supposed to be pretty good. Their products have used
pythalocyanine dyes. Taiyo Yuden use cyanine dyes.

>Do you make DVD-Rs?


I wish. Right now, all I have to work with is CD-Rs.

>**I read a post in this newsgroup where someone said that DVD rot is
>quite often brought on by user neglect. He made the point that
>sometimes straining to pull the disc out of the case sometimes will
>even do it.


Unfortunately. There are some cases to where it is difficult to extract the
disc from the case without bending the disc. Although, I've learned a trick of
getting some of these discs out without bending them.

>Do you still store your DVDs in their cases or do you store them in,
>for instance, a DVD-album?


I always store my CDs and DVDs in their original cases. - Reinhart
 
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LASERandDVDfan
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      05-12-2004
>And what's odd is...I don't. Which is to say that while I don't
>"abuse" my discs, and do handle them with a reasonable amount of care,
>I don't treat them like glass antiques, nor do I go to any lengths to
>keep them in a temperature- and humidity-controlled environment.


You don't have to handle them like museum pieces. All that's needed is to
develop habits of handling CDs like you would regular records, which is
reasonable amount of care.

It amuses me when I see people have problems with CDs and my inspection reveals
substantial damage to both the lacquer layer and the irridescent side as a
result of bad handling and rarely anything else.

One time, a classmate back in high school was wondering why his CD kept
skipping constantly from one point all the way to the end. Checking out the
disc, it had a physical crack that traveled 1/3 of the way from the outer edge
towards the center. - Reinhart
 
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GMAN
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      05-12-2004
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, "One-Shot Scot" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Some in this newsgroup who have not experienced DVD rot continue to
>ridicule and belittle those who have. My first rotted disk was
>_Cabaret_, which failed to play only 4 months after I bought it in 1998.
>Other rotted titles followed, and I reported all of them. Other people
>reported that they too had experienced DVD Rot, but for the most part,
>all of us were quickly dismissed as crackpots.
>
>Now that the DVD Rot problem has infested more and more disks, DVD Rot
>articles are becoming more and more common, including a recent one from
>CNN. If I sound bitter and cynical, it is because I have been
>mocked and insulted for 6 years for my concerns about DVD Rot. Now, I
>can tell my detractors, "I told you so!" But my vindication is not a
>happy one, because, like everyone else on this newsgroup, I too have a
>collection of DVDs and CDs which is currently rotting away.
>
>Some people think that backing up their DVDs and CDs to DVD-R and
>CD-R disks will protect their investment. According to the CNN article
>referenced below, ALL optical disks will eventually rot, some much
>sooner than others. Brand loyalty is a waste of time and money when
>buying recordable optical disks because manufacturers continually change
>their materials and manufacturing methods. A slow-rotting brand-name
>formula might be replaced by a fast-rotting brand-name formula without
>notice. Let the buyer beware.
>
>If you are still living in a dream world and think that DVD and CD Rot
>is nothing more than an urban legend, don't read this article, it will
>only upset you:
>
>http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/05/06/disc.rot.ap/
>
>

Where the hell did they dig up that caveman ??? Did he lose his way on the
trail to a Rainbow Gathering?


 
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LASERandDVDfan
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      05-12-2004
>>With CD-Rs, the difference is when that happens. Most discs, typically
>those
>>made in Taiwan by manufacturers like Ritek and CMC Magnetics for several

>brand
>>names, are garbage.

>
>Which brand names?


Memtek/Memorex/Dysan discs have been made by numerous suppliers so it's hard to
tell.

TDK used to make their own discs, but now have their discs made by CMC
Magnetics.

Imation has their discs made by CMC.

Nashua has their discs made by CMC. Nashua has also been some of the absolute
worst CD-Rs I have ever used.

Verbatim has their discs made by CMC under supervision of Mitsubishi Chemical.

Philips usually has their discs made by Ritek.

Sony makes their own CD-R product at this time, but they're merely okay. They
couldn't be reliably written on at speeds above 4x on my Sony CRX-140E.

I don't know who makes Fuijfilm discs now. But, I do know that they use a
Taiwanese supplier, which is now reason enough to avoid them except when you
find NOS Fuji products that were made in Japan.

Maxell has their CD-R discs made by themselves in Taiwan or by Ritek. Their
PRO line of CD-Rs, however, are made in Japan by Taiyo Yuden.

At this point, the only brands I'd use for myself are Maxell PRO CD-Rs and
Taiyo Yuden branded CD-Rs.

Every Taiyo Yuden disc I've used have been extremely reliable. They're easy to
write on, are very resistant to UV, and are very resistant to heat. However,
CD-Rs from any manufacturer will be damaged from excessive exposure to UV and
heat. However, Taiyo Yuden discs will last much longer than CMC and
particularly Ritek under grueling conditions.

>How are they labeled in the store?


Just look for a label indicating where the discs were made on the packaging.
If the label says "Made in Japan," it is most likely Taiyo Yuden. - Reinhart
 
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LASERandDVDfan
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      05-12-2004
>no watched it once put it back in case and away safely no putting down on
>hard surface as it was in the dvd case with the other three discs and they
>play great, come to watch the other week and nothing on the same dvd that I
>originally watched some time ago.


It may be very possible that this particular disc is defective due to a
manufacturing fault. Try to contact the place of sale for a possible exchange.
If that fails, try to contact the home video label that distributed the disc
in your particular region. - Reinhart
 
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LASERandDVDfan
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      05-12-2004
Forgot to add.

TDK also has their discs made by Ritek. - Reinahrt
 
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TB
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      05-12-2004
Jordan Lund wrote:
> "One-Shot Scot" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
>
>>Some in this newsgroup who have not experienced DVD rot continue to
>>ridicule and belittle those who have.

>
> I can only speak from personal experience, my first CD (Billy Joel's
> Glass Houses) still works fine and it's going on 20 years old now. No
> sign of wear, age or rot. I'm not going to say people are imagining
> that their discs are unplayable, but I will say that either poor
> handling over time is the issue or minor disc defects that are not
> noticed on one player but are noticed on others.


You simply do not know what you're talking about.

I also have some cds dating back to the mediums' first year of public
consumption and they still play fine. As I mentioned in an earlier post
on this thread, I've also had several cds literally "rot" which includes
physically changing color on the data side from silver to a spotty
copper color within a few months of purchase.

This isn't due to mishandling or "minor disc defects" but oxidation
occurring on the actual aluminum disc that the data is imprinted on due
either to chemical corrosion from the glues used to laminate the disc or
air and other impurities trapped in a dirty production facility during
the manufacturing process. Sometimes, it's not a discoloration but if
you hold a cd up to strong light, you can see tiny pinhole flaws in the
silver aluminum data disc. I've had a dozen or so laserdiscs and maybe 4
dvds exhibit the same problem with the symptom always being that the
disc plays fine when bought, and over a period of a few months to
several years, it becomes unplayable.

T.B.

 
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One-Shot Scot
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      05-12-2004
"jayembee" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) (LASERandDVDfan) wrote:

>>My first rotted disk was _Cabaret_, which failed to play only 4 months
>>after I bought it in 1998. Other rotted titles followed, and I
>>reported all of them.

>
>You just have terrible luck ... or very bad habits.


I have over 400 DVDs in my collection, and as far as I know, only 5 of
them have rotted. ALL of these titles rotted were pressed by Warner. I
was able to replace all but one of the titles, and so far, the
replacements are still rot free.

Here is my final DVD rot report, dated September 07, 2003:

If you have a copy of the first _Devil's Advocate_ (Warner DVD #15090),
you might want to check and see if it has rotted yet. Mine was purchased
in December of 1999 and seemed to play well one year ago. However, today
after the layer change, the pixelation on the second layer quickly
became so bad that my player locked up. This title is so notorious for
rotting that I bought the new version a couple of years ago. So far, the
new version still plays perfectly.

The original _Devil's Advocate_ Warner DVD #15090 had a white sticker on
the front of the box as well as a red band on the back of the box which
said the following:

"The large white sculpture of human forms on the wall of John Milton's
penthouse in "Devil's Advocate" is not connected in any way and was not
endorsed by the sculptor Frederick Hart of the Washington National
Cathedral, joint copyright owners of the cathedral sculpture "Ex Nihilo"
in Washington, D.C."

If this disclaimer is not on the box, you are looking at the new
version.

The new _Devil's Advocate_ Warner DVD # 16172 has the Ex Nihilo statue
edited out so that none of the figures are visible. Later, when the
statue begins to move, the new version of the film looks exactly like
the original.

Chapters 1-25 are located on the first layer of the disk and should play
well. It is after the layer change -- at the end of chapter 25 and at
the beginning of chapter 26 -- that a rotted disk will display playback
problems. This brings my total of rotted disks to 5 and ALL of them came
from Warner:

Devil's Advocate (First pressing which cannot be replaced. However,
the edited version is still playing well.)

Cabaret (First one rotted, replacement playing well.)

Casablanca -- Original DVD (First one rotted, replacement playing
well.)

Maltese Falcon (First one rotted, replacement playing well.)

My Fair Lady (First one rotted, replacement playing well.)

You might want to check the second layers of the Warner titles listed
above if they are in your collection.

<<From my perspective, Scott, I never ridiculed your reports of rot. But
I have on a couple of occasions when this subject came up, reported that
my discs have not rotted. Even specific titles that you've reported,
I've checked, and not one of them exhibited any signs of rot.>>

<<Which makes me inclined to agree with Reinhart that you either have
bad luck or bad habits.>>

I have over 500 audio CDs and -- as far as I know -- none of them has
rotted. All of my CDs and DVDs are stored vertically in CD jewel cases
which are kept in lidded bus tubs. (Bus tubs are used in restaurants to
store dishes cleared from tables.) These containers, when stored in a
dry environment, away from heat sources, provide a relatively constant
environment, as far as humidity and dust are concerned. The original
disk packages remain perpetually like new, because they are stored in
cardboard file boxes which are also kept in a cool, dry place.

None of my disks requires any cleaning because they are only handled by
their edges. Dust is removed from the disks by a light dusting with a #1
pin striping brush. In spite of my careful handling and storage methods,
5 of my DVDs have rotted.

If it is true that bending dual-layer DVDs can introduce hairline
cracks, there was an era when many DVDs were subjected to this type of
abuse. My first encounter with DVD packages which required bending of
the DVDs imbedded inside them was around the time when _Citizen Kane_
was released. Fortunately, these types of lock-up hub designs have been
replaced by more user-friendly designs. Just the same, on September 26,
2001, in response to many posts detailing the problems with the
_Citizen Kane_ case, I posted instructions which probably helped some
people better deal with these poorly designed cases:

That_Citizen Kane_box is atrociousness. I was finally able to devise a
way to pry the disks out without damaging them, but those disks are
never going back into that horrible case.

Warner did not include instructions on how to extract the DVDs from this
new, non-snapper case. Here's the best procedure that I could come up
with:

1. Place the case on a flat, stable surface. Firmly hold a thumb or
finger on the center hub where is says "Push." (Doing this will prevent
the disk from jumping sideways and getting scratched when it is finally
pried lose.)

2. Because the 4 indentations surrounding the edges of the disks are too
shallow to allow getting a good grip on the sides of the disk, it is
necessary to try hooking a fingernail under the disk edge. If this is
not possible, a work-around is provided in step #3.

3. Work-around for step #2: Repeat step #1, but instead of trying to
grab the disk by its edges, slide the edge of a credit card under the
outer edge of the disk while supporting the top edge of the disk with
your thumb. Carefully run the credit card around the edge of the disk
while continuing to pry the disk out of its shallow trap. Be sure to
maintain constant and firm finger contact with the center hub: Failure
to do this will allow the disk to jump sideways when it is finally pried
free.

4. If you want to avoid going through the above procedure again, store
the extracted DVDs in CD jewel cases.

We all complained about how bad the Warner snapper cases are and Warner
has responded. I have heard people warn that we should be careful what
we wish for. This new double-disk Warner case is not a snapper -- it is
much worse than that. We got out wish, but maybe this isn't what we had
in mind.


Moviezzz wrote in message
<(E-Mail Removed)>...
>Hi all,
>
>Yes, Warner abandoned the snapper for CITIZEN KANE. But, could they
>have made the center holder any more difficult to release the DVD from?
>It took me 5 minutes to get the film off the center ring, the way they
>have it designed.
>
>The DVD looks great though. Great transfer.



 
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LASERandDVDfan
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      05-12-2004
>You simply do not know what you're talking about.
>
>I also have some cds dating back to the mediums' first year of public
>consumption and they still play fine. As I mentioned in an earlier post
>on this thread, I've also had several cds literally "rot" which includes
>physically changing color on the data side from silver to a spotty
>copper color within a few months of purchase.
>
>This isn't due to mishandling or "minor disc defects" but oxidation
>occurring on the actual aluminum disc that the data is imprinted on due
>either to chemical corrosion from the glues used to laminate the disc or
>air and other impurities trapped in a dirty production facility during
>the manufacturing process.


Now look who's talking.

You do not know what YOU are talking about!

First off, the information on the disc is molded on one side of the
polycarbonate layer itself. What you call the "data layer" is what is
referred to as the aluminum reflective substrate.

A CD is pressed by injecting molten polycarbonate at high pressure into a
special press. After injection, the pressing is rapidly chilled. The
transparent ploycarbonate disc has the pits and lands. The aluminum is applied
by sputtering vaporized aluminum until a uniform application of a desired
amount has been placed on the data side of the polycarbonate. Then, the
lacquer layer, which is made of acrylic, is layered over the reflective
substrate to seal it in. This is done in much the same way that photo-resist
is applied on a blank glass master. No glues or adhesives are used to make
CDs. Adhesives are used only if you are taking two disc havles and joining
them to make one dual-sided disc, which is the case with dual sided DVDs and
LaserDiscs.

>Sometimes, it's not a discoloration but if
>you hold a cd up to strong light, you can see tiny pinhole flaws in the
>silver aluminum data disc.


Those pin holes are usually breeches of the lacquer layer, either due to a
manufacturing imperfection (people who have dealt with CDs made by
Philips-DuPont Optical know what I'm talking about here) or most likely damage
inflicted on the label side by the user.
Sometimes, the things that can pierce through the lacquer can also scrape away
portions of the reflective substrate, which makes that area of the disc
transparent all of a sudden.

The real interesting part is that it doesn't take much for this kind of damage
to happen. Just one incidence of neglect, major or minor, is all it takes to
damage the lacquer layer and expose the reflective substrate to the outside air
to promote oxidation of the aluminum.

I had a Prodigy album, which was pressed by WEA. It was pristine without any
kind of defects before I lent it to a friend. About a couple of weeks later,
my friend returned my disc. It was full of pin holes and scratches on the
lacquer layer as well as scratches on the irridescent side. Needless to say,
my friend destroyed one of my audio CDs in my music collection. - Reinhart
 
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