DVD and CD ROT: Out of the closet, at last!

Some in this newsgroup who have not experienced DVD rot continue to
ridicule and belittle those who have. My first rotted disk was
_Cabaret_, which failed to play only 4 months after I bought it in 1998.
Other rotted titles followed, and I reported all of them. Other people
reported that they too had experienced DVD Rot, but for the most part,
all of us were quickly dismissed as crackpots.

Now that the DVD Rot problem has infested more and more disks, DVD Rot
articles are becoming more and more common, including a recent one from
CNN. If I sound bitter and cynical, it is because I have been
mocked and insulted for 6 years for my concerns about DVD Rot. Now, I
can tell my detractors, "I told you so!" But my vindication is not a
happy one, because, like everyone else on this newsgroup, I too have a
collection of DVDs and CDs which is currently rotting away.

Some people think that backing up their DVDs and CDs to DVD-R and
CD-R disks will protect their investment. According to the CNN article
referenced below, ALL optical disks will eventually rot, some much
sooner than others. Brand loyalty is a waste of time and money when
buying recordable optical disks because manufacturers continually change
their materials and manufacturing methods. A slow-rotting brand-name
formula might be replaced by a fast-rotting brand-name formula without
notice. Let the buyer beware.

If you are still living in a dream world and think that DVD and CD Rot
is nothing more than an urban legend, don't read this article, it will
only upset you:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/05/06/disc.rot.ap/

One-Shot Scot

"One-Shot Scot" <> wrote in message ...
> Some in this newsgroup who have not experienced DVD rot continue to
> ridicule and belittle those who have. My first rotted disk was
> _Cabaret_, which failed to play only 4 months after I bought it in 1998.
> Other rotted titles followed, and I reported all of them. Other people
> reported that they too had experienced DVD Rot, but for the most part,
> all of us were quickly dismissed as crackpots.

I don't know why people get so worked up over this. I know that it is worth
getting worked up over, don't get me wrong. But, why doesn't anyone ever
mention the "good old days" of VHS tapes. I can't tell you the number of
times I've lost tapes because my VCR got "hungry" and decided to munch on
tapes and make them nearly unwatchable. Even had a few VCRs rewind the tape
clean off the roller, and I had to do "surgery" on the tape to get it
working. <g> Have I not mentioned that tapes, unlike DVD get progressively
worse upon each viewing. This is not to mention that they're only half of
what NTSC (Never the same color) is capable of in the first place! lol

Now I will say this. It is much easier to watch a damaged tape, than a
damaged DVD. I had one tape continue to play even after a part broke off
and got caught in the tape roller, and a good cleaning fixes most problems.

Also many discs "rot" on cheapie players where a lot of heat is involved.
I've had a couple go out on me with such a player. When I finally broke
down and spent a few bucks on a known brand name, that problem disappeared.
Also, they're sensitive to handling. I've had some display problem
described on rotting if I had handled the discs after eating and not washing
my hands, for example.

I don't deny that rot is a potential problem, and that is something I'm
watching for. I'm just trying to bring back a bit of perspective in the
debate.

Larry

Larry G

my second disc of two towers that I only watched once wont play anymore and
there's nothing I can do about it, it is in spotless condition as in no
scratches but just wont play. so is this rot

Dave

"One-Shot Scot" <> wrote in message
news:caOdnb5xqvDmQz3dRVn-...
> Some in this newsgroup who have not experienced DVD rot continue to
> ridicule and belittle those who have. My first rotted disk was
> _Cabaret_, which failed to play only 4 months after I bought it in 1998.
> Other rotted titles followed, and I reported all of them. Other people
> reported that they too had experienced DVD Rot, but for the most part,
> all of us were quickly dismissed as crackpots.
>
> Now that the DVD Rot problem has infested more and more disks, DVD Rot
> articles are becoming more and more common, including a recent one from
> CNN. If I sound bitter and cynical, it is because I have been
> mocked and insulted for 6 years for my concerns about DVD Rot. Now, I
> can tell my detractors, "I told you so!" But my vindication is not a
> happy one, because, like everyone else on this newsgroup, I too have a
> collection of DVDs and CDs which is currently rotting away.
>
> Some people think that backing up their DVDs and CDs to DVD-R and
> CD-R disks will protect their investment. According to the CNN article
> referenced below, ALL optical disks will eventually rot, some much
> sooner than others. Brand loyalty is a waste of time and money when
> buying recordable optical disks because manufacturers continually change
> their materials and manufacturing methods. A slow-rotting brand-name
> formula might be replaced by a fast-rotting brand-name formula without
> notice. Let the buyer beware.
>
> If you are still living in a dream world and think that DVD and CD Rot
> is nothing more than an urban legend, don't read this article, it will
> only upset you:
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/05/06/disc.rot.ap/
>
>

Dragon

Larry G wrote:

(snip)

> I don't deny that rot is a potential problem, and that is something I'm
> watching for. I'm just trying to bring back a bit of perspective in the
> debate.

I agree with what you're saying, but I think many people who are
concerned about "rot" are ****ed more bacause the various mediums (cd,
laserdisc, dvd) that rot is known to occur were touted as being a
"lifetime" medium, meaning they'd never suffer any form of deterioration
and outlast their consumers.

The small minority of people who are keenly aware of this issue have
known for years that these types of discs would likely shown some form
of deterioration anywhere from 5 years to 20 years due to the
manufacturing process and chemicals used in the lamination of the
aluminum data disc with the plastic coating. I had a few cds from Europe
manufactured around '87 turn a spotted copper color on the data side and
become unplayable within months of their purchase. It was in the mid
90's when an alarming number of laserdiscs that I was buying were bad
right out of the sleeve due to so-called rot.

Simply, a better process to preserve the information needs to be developed.

T.B.

TB

On Tue, 11 May 2004 07:12:23 -0700, "One-Shot Scot" <>
wrote:

>
>Now that the DVD Rot problem has infested more and more disks, DVD Rot
>articles are becoming more and more common, including a recent one from
>CNN. If I sound bitter and cynical, it is because I have been
>mocked and insulted for 6 years for my concerns about DVD Rot. Now, I
>can tell my detractors, "I told you so!" But my vindication is not a
>happy one, because, like everyone else on this newsgroup, I too have a
>collection of DVDs and CDs which is currently rotting away.
>
>Some people think that backing up their DVDs and CDs to DVD-R and
>CD-R disks will protect their investment. According to the CNN article
>referenced below, ALL optical disks will eventually rot, some much
>sooner than others. Brand loyalty is a waste of time and money when
>buying recordable optical disks because manufacturers continually change
>their materials and manufacturing methods. A slow-rotting brand-name
>formula might be replaced by a fast-rotting brand-name formula without
>notice. Let the buyer beware.
>
>If you are still living in a dream world and think that DVD and CD Rot
>is nothing more than an urban legend, don't read this article, it will
>only upset you:
>
>http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/05/06/disc.rot.ap/
>

You know what represents the ultimate irony? I was having a
discussion with a fellow responsible for the music archives of a major
label (Sony) and the topic of preservation came up. CDs and CDrs rot,
tapes decay, Vinyl warps and ridges, and sometimes reacts with the
sleeve.. you know what has outlasted everything else, including
preservation safeties? .. 78s. "Shellac" (a misnomer) and laminated
78 rpm records, as long as they are kept dry and not subject to
mildew, play as well now as they did when they were pressed 75 years
ago, and not just masters, but regular consumer pressings. Metal
parts tend to be more subject to failure however. A massive CDR
burning project done in the 1980s has been for naught, more than 40%
of them now have clicks and tracking problems, and they were kept in
the same atmosphere as the 78 rpm records they were taken from. Even
digital tape is failing. It's a catastrophe waiting to fully erupt.

. Steve .

Steve(JazzHunter)

Hi all.

Does anybody know if there is scutch a utility as CHKDSK for CD/DVD.
It would be nice to get an warning in advance, before the discs reach a
stage where they can not be recovered.


One-Shot Scot wrote:

> Some in this newsgroup who have not experienced DVD rot continue to
> ridicule and belittle those who have. My first rotted disk was
> _Cabaret_, which failed to play only 4 months after I bought it in 1998.
> Other rotted titles followed, and I reported all of them. Other people
> reported that they too had experienced DVD Rot, but for the most part,
> all of us were quickly dismissed as crackpots.
>
> Now that the DVD Rot problem has infested more and more disks, DVD Rot
> articles are becoming more and more common, including a recent one from
> CNN. If I sound bitter and cynical, it is because I have been
> mocked and insulted for 6 years for my concerns about DVD Rot. Now, I
> can tell my detractors, "I told you so!" But my vindication is not a
> happy one, because, like everyone else on this newsgroup, I too have a
> collection of DVDs and CDs which is currently rotting away.
>
> Some people think that backing up their DVDs and CDs to DVD-R and
> CD-R disks will protect their investment. According to the CNN article
> referenced below, ALL optical disks will eventually rot, some much
> sooner than others. Brand loyalty is a waste of time and money when
> buying recordable optical disks because manufacturers continually change
> their materials and manufacturing methods. A slow-rotting brand-name
> formula might be replaced by a fast-rotting brand-name formula without
> notice. Let the buyer beware.
>
> If you are still living in a dream world and think that DVD and CD Rot
> is nothing more than an urban legend, don't read this article, it will
> only upset you:
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/05/06/disc.rot.ap/

A C

>My first rotted disk was
>_Cabaret_, which failed to play only 4 months after I bought it in 1998.
>Other rotted titles followed, and I reported all of them.

You just have terrible luck ... or very bad habits.

>Now that the DVD Rot problem has infested more and more disks, DVD Rot
>articles are becoming more and more common, including a recent one from
>CNN.

I've read the article from CNN almost a week before you mentioned it here.
It's nothing more than sensationalist clap-trap filled with utter inaccuracies.
The only thing from the article that made any sense was the quote from the CD
plant, that almost all cases of so-called defects are caused by user abuse.

As for the so-called "rotting" that the individual in the article was
mentioning, the pitting was most likely due to leaving the discs rested on a
hard surface with the label side facing down. This is bad because granular
dust or dirt can damage the acrylic lacquer seal layer. The characteristics of
this particular kind of damage is, guess what, pin holes and scratches that you
can see light through!

Another possibility is the climate conditions that the discs were stored in. I
wouldn't be surprised if the discs were exposed to moisture condensation as a
result of the unstable temperature flucuations that the storage environment was
subject to. Water from the condensation can penetrate the thin acrylic lacquer
seal layer and chemically attack the aluminum reflective substrate.

>Now, I
>can tell my detractors, "I told you so!" But my vindication is not a
>happy one, because, like everyone else on this newsgroup, I too have a
>collection of DVDs and CDs which is currently rotting away.

That's strange. All of my discs are perfect. No scratches, no pin holes where
I can see light through, no peeling, nothing. All they do is play.

I have LaserDiscs from 1982 that still play perfectly, and they're made in
basically the exact same manner as CDs and DVDs with only minor differences in
manufacturing.

I also have CDs that were originally made in 1986. They still play and are not
rotting or damaged.

Then again, I store and handle my discs as I would conventional records.

>According to the CNN article
>referenced below, ALL optical disks will eventually rot, some much
>sooner than others.

With CDs and DVDs, this is a problem only when you expose the reflective
substrate to the outside atmosphere, which won't happen unless the disc wasn't
manufacrtured properly or when you compromise the acrylic lacquer seal.

With CD-Rs, the difference is when that happens. Most discs, typically those
made in Taiwan by manufacturers like Ritek and CMC Magnetics for several brand
names, are garbage. For CD-R archiving, I rely only on Japanese-made Taiyo
Yuden discs. Those are the only CD-Rs that I can ever trust.

>Brand loyalty is a waste of time and money when
>buying recordable optical disks because manufacturers continually change
>their materials and manufacturing methods.

The key is to buy discs directly from the source or know how to identify who
made the discs for a particular brand. Taiyo Yuden makes their own discs and
have been a 3rd party supplier for Maxell's Pro line of CD-R discs and used to
supply discs to FujiFilm before Fuji changed to a Taiwanese supplier.

A basic tip is to find out where the CD-R discs were made. Most are made in
Taiwan, which are the ones that should be avoided. The few that are made in
Japan are most likely going to have been made by Taiyo Yuden.

As another poster mentioned, rot is still a potential problem. However, from
my understanding of how the technology works and how discs are made, most rot
defects are almost invariably due to user neglect.
If the user handles a disc in a way that allows the acrylic lacquer substrate
to be compromised in anyway, from scratching the label side to bending the disc
causing hairline cracks in the lacquer, the aluminum will be exposed to oxygen
from the outside which will chemically attack and cause oxidation to the
aluminum reflective substrate, which is essentially what laser rot is. -
Reinhart

LASERandDVDfan

> had a few cds from Europe
>manufactured around '87 turn a spotted copper color on the data side and
>become unplayable within months of their purchase.

I'll bet those discs were made by Philips-DuPont Optical. They were perhaps
the worst CD replicators, very much like how Technidisc was the worst LD
replicators in the United States since MCA DiscoVision.

>Simply, a better process to preserve the information needs to be developed.

The best way is to simply eliminate the use of aluminum in making the
reflective substrate and to go with a metal that is less prone to chemical
attack and oxidation. Unfortunately, the metals to where this characteristic
exists are usually precious metals, like gold.

Another possible solution is to make discs with a thicker layer of acrylic for
the lacquer seal.

For LaserDisc rot, the rotting problem is usually due to a problem with the
formulation of the adhesive used to join two discs halves together. If the
formula isn't right and if the process of joining two discs halves isn't
perfect, you will have problems with inclusion artifacts and laser rot. With
LaserDisc, if the adhesive contains chemicals that can penetrate the lacquer,
it will chemically attack the aluminum substrate. If the joining of two discs
halves is done with foreign matter caught in between, you will have problems.
If the joining of the two disc halves is not done carefully, you will have air
bubbles that can eventually penetrate the lacquer and chemically attack the
aluminum. This may also be a potential problem with dual sided DVDs since they
are made in essentially the same way. However, the size of DVD discs in
comparison to LaserDiscs reduces the complexity somewhat, plus you have error
correction in the digital encoding along with a block sector formatting
strategy which can help to counter quite a few potential manufacturing defects
while LaserDiscs are linear FM analogue with no corrections to account for bad
manufacturing. However, manufacturing must still be conducted carefully and
under clean room conditions to reduce the risk of defective yields.

But, in regards to CDs and DVDs that are not dual-sided, this particular
problem does not exist. However, problems in making the lacquer seal can cause
problems with rotting in the future. However, most cases of rot in this manner
are due to abusive handling. It does not take much to damage the lacquer seal
to where the aluminum can be exposed to the outside atmosphere. The suggestion
to handle CDs and DVDs like conventional records, giving equal consideration to
both sides of the disc, is one of the greatest measures of prevention to keep
your discs working. - Reinhart

LASERandDVDfan

>my second disc of two towers that I only watched once wont play anymore and
>there's nothing I can do about it, it is in spotless condition as in no
>scratches but just wont play. so is this rot

What player are you using?

Also, did you ever rest the disc with the label side facing downward against a
hard surface?

Check the lacquer layer for damage by looking at the disc through a light. If
you can see light through pits and scratches, the lacquer has sustained damage.
- Reinhart

LASERandDVDfan

Digital is still, IMO, preferred for preservation.

Unlike analogue, where generational loss is a problem, a digital master can be
transferred through a bit-by-bit read to a digital backup. Before the
expiration of digital media, you can make essentially perfect digital backups.

As for failing digital tape, the reason for failure is simple: it's magnetic
tape. Tapes use a chemical binder to join the magnetic media to the plastic
tape, much like chemical film on photographic filmstrips, and binders are known
to fail simply from age, also like the film on filmstrips. When the binder
deteriorates, it's the same problem as old videotapes. The binder can flake
off the plastic tape or even have a mold infestation if the storage conditions
were poor.

As for 78s, they were made using rigid and stable materials. As you've said,
as long as the storage conditions are good and stable, they won't deteriorate
as quickly.

As for consumer CDs and DVDs that were press replicated (not burned). I am
still convinced that the main cause of problems is due to user neglect. Look
through the collections of any average person and it's likely that almost all
of their discs are damaged in one way or another. All it takes is one small
nick on the thinner-than-human-hair lacquer layer to expose the aluminum
substrate to the outside air, causing deterioration that will only get worse as
time goes on. - Reinhart

LASERandDVDfan