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Black Locust
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-07-2003
This is mostly about CD's, but it also mentions DVD's so I thought it
might be of interest.

Credit: http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5070...ag=cnetfd.buzz

Study: CDs may soon be as final as vinyl
By CNET News.com Staff
September 2, 2003, 8:24 AM PT


Forrester Research on Tuesday predicted a steep fall in CD sales, as
audio and video file sharing over the Internet continues to emerge as a
preferred option among consumers.

The firm said 20 percent of Americans engage in music downloading, and
half of the downloaders said they are buying fewer CDs. By 2008, 33
percent of music sales will come from downloads, with CD sales down 30
percent from their 1999 peak. On-demand movie distribution will generate
$1.4 billion by 2005, and revenue from DVDs and tapes will decline 8
percent, Forrester predicted.

"The shift from physical media will halt the music industry's slide and
create new revenues for movie companies, but it will wreak havoc with
retailers like Tower Records and Blockbuster," Josh Bernoff, principal
analyst at Forrester, said in a statement. "As a result, we're about to
see a massive power shift in the entertainment industry."


According to the study, in the next nine months, at least 10
Windows-based music services will emerge, creating alternatives to
illegal file sharing. America Online already has 90,000 MusicNet
subscribers; Musicmatch and RealOne Rhapsody are expected to
differentiate their media players with Web radio; BuyMusic will try to
take advantage of its early entry with personalized recommendations from
ChoiceStream; and Apple Computer will release a Windows version of its
popular iTunes service.

Forrester predicted that by the end of 2004, Apple and possibly
Musicmatch will emerge as leaders, file sharing will be in decline, and
downloads and on-demand subscriptions will bring in $270 million.
Surging online revenue--including subscription services--will increase
music sales by more than a half billion dollars in 2004, according to
the study.

The research firm said music companies and studios are realizing that
they must create new channels for online delivery. Consumers, tired of
paying high prices for CDs and DVDs, are looking for flexible forms of
on-demand media delivery.

"Technology trends like increased broadband adoption and cheap,
widespread storage have made it possible for consumers to easily manage
their digital entertainment at home," Bernoff pointed out.

The survey also shows that the music industry's plan to sue individuals
for online piracy through software such as Kazaa might pay off: More
than two out of three young file sharers said they would stop swapping
if there were a serious risk of jail or a fine.
--
BL
 
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Anonymous Joe
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-07-2003
Interesting, but it's all speculation.

I still see problems with the music downloading that you pay for.

1st - What kind of licenses does it have, ie, can you burn it, can you copy
it to MP3 players, can you upload it to services such as the former iLocker.
2nd - What format is it in? Obviously, you need it to be small enough for
the 56ker's, which makes up most people, but the people who were downloading
really were the DSL/Cable group, which could afford the extra bandwidth to
get higher-bit rate files.
3rd - The price...
4th - This one is for artists / RIAA / record labels - If an artist makes a
CD like they do now, there are some artists who make a CD with a few hits
and the rest is junk, while others try to make a whole album of hits (see:
Beatles, Led Zeppelin I-IV), so if the artist makes only hits, then those
are the songs that get downloaded. If you charge 90c/song, and a band makes
2 good songs that are popular, then RIAA gets $1.80, and the artist much
less. However, now, the consumer pays $13, instead of $1.80, so they get
the junk, but the RIAA gets the money.

The other side of #4 is, this will only help to create artists who don't put
junk with a few hits, encourage it, and eventually, destroy the crappy
artists (boy bands, etc.).

Here's an interesting point, if you can download songs for, say 90c/song,
and an artist makes an album with, say, 18 songs, and you want to download
all of it, then you should pay $16.20. It costs you $16.20 to download
compressed audio and then you can pay the extra money for a CD-R and a Jewel
case, and say that is an extra 60c total, so you have spent $16.80 to make
something that most people can do now, illegally, for $0.60. However, you
can go to a store and buy it for $13.00, if they don't change the pricing
because of decreased printing of CDs, and you get a pressed disc with high
quality uncompressed audio AND the artwork.

Seeing how cdcovers.cc has had their CD Covers section shutdown (thanks to
the RIAA), would services be able to offer the artwork? Would you need to
pay extra, would you need to download all the songs first, and then it is
free, or extra?

The MOST important thing to me is the quality. If you were to truly offer
songs on the internet, to maintain CD quality, which is something that we
pay for right now, you would need to offer the songs in a format such as
uncompressed WAV 44.1kHz 16-bit Stereo, or APE, or FLAC, or OFR, WV.
Seeing how the only one universally understandable is WAV, but it is also
the largest, at 10MB/minute, this is interesting. If I pay 90c to get a
song, I want the WAV file, but do I really want to download 600MB to get a
whole album's worth of music, or 800MB to fill a whole mix CD? The answer
is no.

Moreover, which of these formats offers licensing ability, to control our
media, as the RIAA loves to do? Well, WMA comes to mind. This is a poor
choice, since it only helps Microsoft, which in turn means that the WMA
codec is advanced and more popular, thus killing the open-source codecs such
as OGG, MP3, or any of the alternatives to WAV I had named.

The quality of these downloaded files for money, has to be EQUAL to CD. It
cannot be less, that is an inferior product. At that point, the ONLY music
medium is the 15+yr old CD, and the ONLY way to get this is at a store
(internet or local).

Just for extra, I found the thing about the 2/3 + of "young" people who
would stop sharing if it is a crime with jail or fine to be more of a joke
than actually accurate. Did this "poll" only feature people who DO share?
I know that plenty of people are just leeches, and if you ask a leech if
they would share, they'll say no, no matter what. How many of these people
actually are telling the truth. Everyone knows that "young" people say one
thing and do the exact opposite. Would these "young" people find
alternatives to Kazaa?

What would happen if a truly anonymous P2P service is launched, with no way
of tracking any IP addresses, MAC addresses, or data packets sent/received?
There is no evidence of a "crime" anymore. You cannot assume that every
song downloaded by somebody is a crime - theft. There are legal
circumstances under which you are allowed to have these media files. For
example, if you own the CD, you can copy the CD into MP3 format for
yourself. If you don't know how or your PC can't due to speed issues (ie it
is quicker to download than to rip/encode), then it makes sense to obtain a
copy of your purchased, licensed media via P2P services or warez or anywhere
else, except pay services due to their fee (although if you want to pay
twice, go ahead). How do you know that every one of those files has been
illegally downloaded, and the owner of the computer which contains these
files does not own a copy of every CD those songs came from?

So, I guess, if you are sued, you can go out and buy all the CDs necessary
to obtain these songs, paying cash and burning the recepits, and wearing a
disguise as to conceal who you are, as the RIAA will ask all stores if they
have seen anybody come in and buy a lot of stuff and if they say yes, and
they show a picture of you, and the guy says it was you, then your screwed
(BTW, I'm being serious here), then make an unprecendented legal case
claiming all the songs were legally licensesd due to your purchase of the
albums / CDs from which these songs have come. That would really help out
everybody. Think about it, though, if it costs you $1,000 to purchase the
CDs, then you are out $1,000, but have all the CDs and that's cool enough.
On top of it, your found not guilty of theft, piracy, etc., and you face no
jail time, and don't have to pay fines that are well over $1,000. On top of
that, you have shown that the RIAA cannot simply sue anybody because of
possesion of an MP3 file. MP3s, WMAs, WAVs, OGGs, APEs, WVs, FLACs, AACs,
AC3s, etc., are all LEGAL to have.

Alright, now, after all of this, as to the DVD issue that Black Locust had
brought up, the same idea pretty much applies. If the on-demand stuff is to
be released to the general public, on the Internet, this will be a tough
one. File size is an issue. Quality is another one. I would only pay for
sometinhg with the quality of DVD video, with atleast AC3 5.1 surround.
There will never be a day that you are going to get me to pay for the 700mb
MPEG-4 w/ MP3 2.0 audio AVI file, the quality is not there.

However, if offered through digital cable services (like in my area
currently), then it would need to have digital quality, and the option to
have it in HD would be a necessity. Moreover, it needs to have 5.1
surround, as the DVD does. If I go to Blockbuster and pay $4.25 for a DVD,
I get 5.1 audio, maybe even DTS, and that is an absolute must to watch teh
DVD. It's how it was intended, it's how it is supposed to be viewed. It
wouldn't have been recorded in 5.1 if it weren't important to the movie.
Why would I be paying money for on-demand video that didn't have 5.1 or HD
option? This also means that the digital cable boxes need to have both
Coaxial and Optical digital outputs. (As in my case, coaxial won't receive
5.1, but optical will, but maybe others receiver's will only receive 5.1
through coaxial, or if your receiver does both, then you can pick the
cheaper cable or the better cable). I'm not sure how the digital boxes look,
but I doubt they have both coaxial and optical.

Comments?


"Black Locust" <> wrote in message
news:bl2112-...
> This is mostly about CD's, but it also mentions DVD's so I thought it
> might be of interest.
>
> Credit: http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5070...ag=cnetfd.buzz
>
> Study: CDs may soon be as final as vinyl
> By CNET News.com Staff
> September 2, 2003, 8:24 AM PT
>
>
> Forrester Research on Tuesday predicted a steep fall in CD sales, as
> audio and video file sharing over the Internet continues to emerge as a
> preferred option among consumers.
>
> The firm said 20 percent of Americans engage in music downloading, and
> half of the downloaders said they are buying fewer CDs. By 2008, 33
> percent of music sales will come from downloads, with CD sales down 30
> percent from their 1999 peak. On-demand movie distribution will generate
> $1.4 billion by 2005, and revenue from DVDs and tapes will decline 8
> percent, Forrester predicted.
>
> "The shift from physical media will halt the music industry's slide and
> create new revenues for movie companies, but it will wreak havoc with
> retailers like Tower Records and Blockbuster," Josh Bernoff, principal
> analyst at Forrester, said in a statement. "As a result, we're about to
> see a massive power shift in the entertainment industry."
>
>
> According to the study, in the next nine months, at least 10
> Windows-based music services will emerge, creating alternatives to
> illegal file sharing. America Online already has 90,000 MusicNet
> subscribers; Musicmatch and RealOne Rhapsody are expected to
> differentiate their media players with Web radio; BuyMusic will try to
> take advantage of its early entry with personalized recommendations from
> ChoiceStream; and Apple Computer will release a Windows version of its
> popular iTunes service.
>
> Forrester predicted that by the end of 2004, Apple and possibly
> Musicmatch will emerge as leaders, file sharing will be in decline, and
> downloads and on-demand subscriptions will bring in $270 million.
> Surging online revenue--including subscription services--will increase
> music sales by more than a half billion dollars in 2004, according to
> the study.
>
> The research firm said music companies and studios are realizing that
> they must create new channels for online delivery. Consumers, tired of
> paying high prices for CDs and DVDs, are looking for flexible forms of
> on-demand media delivery.
>
> "Technology trends like increased broadband adoption and cheap,
> widespread storage have made it possible for consumers to easily manage
> their digital entertainment at home," Bernoff pointed out.
>
> The survey also shows that the music industry's plan to sue individuals
> for online piracy through software such as Kazaa might pay off: More
> than two out of three young file sharers said they would stop swapping
> if there were a serious risk of jail or a fine.
> --
> BL



 
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Invid Fan
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-07-2003
In article <BuM6b.282716$cF.88241@rwcrnsc53>, Anonymous Joe
<> wrote:

> Interesting, but it's all speculation.
>
> I still see problems with the music downloading that you pay for.
>
> 1st - What kind of licenses does it have, ie, can you burn it, can you copy
> it to MP3 players, can you upload it to services such as the former iLocker.


On the Apple site, you can burn around 10 cds with the same playlist
(change the song order and burn 10 more), have it on up to 4 computers
at the same time, and any number of iPods. You can't upload it
anywhere, naturally, as nobody else would be able to play it. (you can
burn a cd then re-rip it, but sound quality will suffer).

> 2nd - What format is it in? Obviously, you need it to be small enough for
> the 56ker's, which makes up most people, but the people who were downloading
> really were the DSL/Cable group, which could afford the extra bandwidth to
> get higher-bit rate files.


ACC seems like a reasonable compromise.

>
> Here's an interesting point, if you can download songs for, say 90c/song,
> and an artist makes an album with, say, 18 songs, and you want to download
> all of it, then you should pay $16.20. It costs you $16.20 to download
> compressed audio and then you can pay the extra money for a CD-R and a Jewel
> case, and say that is an extra 60c total, so you have spent $16.80 to make
> something that most people can do now, illegally, for $0.60. However, you
> can go to a store and buy it for $13.00, if they don't change the pricing
> because of decreased printing of CDs, and you get a pressed disc with high
> quality uncompressed audio AND the artwork.
>

Apple's pricing is $.99 a song, or $9.99 per album. If you're not
intending to burn it, that's a $3+ saving over buying it at the store.

> The quality of these downloaded files for money, has to be EQUAL to CD. It
> cannot be less, that is an inferior product. At that point, the ONLY music
> medium is the 15+yr old CD, and the ONLY way to get this is at a store
> (internet or local).
>

It depends on how you're going to use it. I currently only listen to
music either on my computer or with my iPod at work. Thus, any cd I buy
is going to get ripped anyways, so what I download will be the same
quality as what I'd end up listening to from the cd anyways.

--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total ****. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
 
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Biird Phd
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-08-2003
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 18:33:31 -0400, Invid Fan <> wrote:

>In article <BuM6b.282716$cF.88241@rwcrnsc53>, Anonymous Joe
><> wrote:
>
>> Interesting, but it's all speculation.
>>
>> I still see problems with the music downloading that you pay for.
>>
>> 1st - What kind of licenses does it have, ie, can you burn it, can you copy
>> it to MP3 players, can you upload it to services such as the former iLocker.

>
>On the Apple site, you can burn around 10 cds with the same playlist
>(change the song order and burn 10 more), have it on up to 4 computers
>at the same time, and any number of iPods. You can't upload it
>anywhere, naturally, as nobody else would be able to play it. (you can
>burn a cd then re-rip it, but sound quality will suffer).
>

This group is about DVD's, no stealing music for CD

Prof. Speedbyrd :>
 
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Nicholas Andrade
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-09-2003
Invid Fan wrote:

> In article <BuM6b.282716$cF.88241@rwcrnsc53>, Anonymous Joe
> <> wrote:
>
>
>>Interesting, but it's all speculation.
>>
>>I still see problems with the music downloading that you pay for.
>>
>>1st - What kind of licenses does it have, ie, can you burn it, can you copy
>>it to MP3 players, can you upload it to services such as the former iLocker.

>
>
> On the Apple site, you can burn around 10 cds with the same playlist
> (change the song order and burn 10 more), have it on up to 4 computers
> at the same time, and any number of iPods. You can't upload it
> anywhere, naturally, as nobody else would be able to play it. (you can
> burn a cd then re-rip it, but sound quality will suffer).
>

Why will the quality suffer? I don't know Mac's, but can't you simply
rip the CD as a WAV without any loss like a regular CD?

>
>>2nd - What format is it in? Obviously, you need it to be small enough for
>>the 56ker's, which makes up most people, but the people who were downloading
>>really were the DSL/Cable group, which could afford the extra bandwidth to
>>get higher-bit rate files.

>
>
> ACC seems like a reasonable compromise.
>

I haven't heard ACC, but given the choice, I'd take SHN. Absolutely no
compression loss and half the size of a WAV.
>
>>Here's an interesting point, if you can download songs for, say 90c/song,
>>and an artist makes an album with, say, 18 songs, and you want to download
>>all of it, then you should pay $16.20. It costs you $16.20 to download
>>compressed audio and then you can pay the extra money for a CD-R and a Jewel
>>case, and say that is an extra 60c total, so you have spent $16.80 to make
>>something that most people can do now, illegally, for $0.60. However, you
>>can go to a store and buy it for $13.00, if they don't change the pricing
>>because of decreased printing of CDs, and you get a pressed disc with high
>>quality uncompressed audio AND the artwork.
>>

>
> Apple's pricing is $.99 a song, or $9.99 per album. If you're not
> intending to burn it, that's a $3+ saving over buying it at the store.
>


I believe that practice will become common with most of these services
for the very reason the original poster mentions.

>
>>The quality of these downloaded files for money, has to be EQUAL to CD. It
>>cannot be less, that is an inferior product. At that point, the ONLY music
>>medium is the 15+yr old CD, and the ONLY way to get this is at a store
>>(internet or local).
>>

>
> It depends on how you're going to use it. I currently only listen to
> music either on my computer or with my iPod at work. Thus, any cd I buy
> is going to get ripped anyways, so what I download will be the same
> quality as what I'd end up listening to from the cd anyways.
>

Adios,
~Nick

 
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