PAL vs NTSC - difference in pitch??? Help!

I have read that NTSC DVDs play films at the correct speed and pitch,
whereas PAL DVDs effectively play 25 frames per second rather than 24. This
results in a speed up of 1/24 or 4.016666% for PAL, and therefore an
increase in pitch of just under 1 semitone. (1 semitone up would correspond
to an increase of about 5.95%)

I happen to have Army of Darkness in NTSC and PAL, and recorded a
recognisable part of music from each into my PC.

The NTSC music clip lasts 50 seconds; the same music clip from the PAL DVD
lasts 48 seconds. So far, as expected. However I _cannot_ hear any
difference in pitch at all!

Believe me, it's not my ears - I have played the piano for over 15 years,
and I am sure I could tell a difference of even half a semitone without
difficulty.

Perhaps some DVD players convert the pitch automatically? My player is a
Wharfedale 750 (original model, but with most recent firmware).

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Sam


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Sam

Sam wrote:
> I have read that NTSC DVDs play films at the correct speed and pitch,
> whereas PAL DVDs effectively play 25 frames per second rather than
> 24. This results in a speed up of 1/24 or 4.016666% for PAL, and
> therefore an increase in pitch of just under 1 semitone. (1 semitone
> up would correspond to an increase of about 5.95%)
>
> I happen to have Army of Darkness in NTSC and PAL, and recorded a
> recognisable part of music from each into my PC.
>
> The NTSC music clip lasts 50 seconds; the same music clip from the
> PAL DVD lasts 48 seconds. So far, as expected. However I _cannot_
> hear any difference in pitch at all!
>
> Believe me, it's not my ears - I have played the piano for over 15
> years, and I am sure I could tell a difference of even half a
> semitone without difficulty.
>
> Perhaps some DVD players convert the pitch automatically? My player
> is a Wharfedale 750 (original model, but with most recent firmware).

IIRC, some PAL DVDs have their pitch corrected- so maybe this is the case (I
think this is the case with the LOTR DVD- but I could be wrong).

To be honest, the decreased resolution and 3:2 pulldown on NTSC video annoys
the hell out of me (a lot more than any amount of change in pitch could).
I've only ever noticed the pitch change when a tune that I really like is
played in a film- but other than that it doesn't bother me.

--
PaulStation
--
@ paulstation at ntlworld dot com
@ Xbox Live! Gamertag: "PaulStation"

PaulStation

"Sam" <> wrote in message
news:bfokg8$hb56s$...
> I have read that NTSC DVDs play films at the correct speed and pitch,
> whereas PAL DVDs effectively play 25 frames per second rather than 24.
This
> results in a speed up of 1/24 or 4.016666% for PAL, and therefore an
> increase in pitch of just under 1 semitone. (1 semitone up would
correspond
> to an increase of about 5.95%)
>
> I happen to have Army of Darkness in NTSC and PAL, and recorded a
> recognisable part of music from each into my PC.
>
> The NTSC music clip lasts 50 seconds; the same music clip from the PAL DVD
> lasts 48 seconds. So far, as expected. However I _cannot_ hear any
> difference in pitch at all!
>
> Believe me, it's not my ears - I have played the piano for over 15 years,
> and I am sure I could tell a difference of even half a semitone without
> difficulty.
>
> Perhaps some DVD players convert the pitch automatically? My player is a
> Wharfedale 750 (original model, but with most recent firmware).
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> Sam

I'm also struggling to replicate the 'PAL speedup' phenomenon - I have a
couple of PAL music DVDs with videos containing identical soundtracks to the
versions I own on CD, and by exactly synchronising them (to as reasonable a
degree of accuracy as can be expected) I've found that they not only play at
exactly the same pitch, but remain in sync throughout the length of the
track.

Unfortunately I can't think of any R2 films I own containing tracks that I
also have on CD, so my testing is less than definitive.

Jonathan

"Sam" <> wrote in message
news:bfokg8$hb56s$...
> I have read that NTSC DVDs play films at the correct speed and pitch,
> whereas PAL DVDs effectively play 25 frames per second rather than 24.
This
> results in a speed up of 1/24 or 4.016666% for PAL, and therefore an
> increase in pitch of just under 1 semitone. (1 semitone up would
correspond
> to an increase of about 5.95%)
>
> I happen to have Army of Darkness in NTSC and PAL, and recorded a
> recognisable part of music from each into my PC.
>
> The NTSC music clip lasts 50 seconds; the same music clip from the PAL DVD
> lasts 48 seconds. So far, as expected. However I _cannot_ hear any
> difference in pitch at all!
>
> Believe me, it's not my ears - I have played the piano for over 15 years,
> and I am sure I could tell a difference of even half a semitone without
> difficulty.
>
> Perhaps some DVD players convert the pitch automatically? My player is a
> Wharfedale 750 (original model, but with most recent firmware).
>
> Any ideas?

I was thinking about this recently. I wonder if the pitch raise issue only
affects films whose soundtrack was recorded on analogue equipment. I'm
assuming if a soundtrack is digitally recorded an increase in speed
shouldn't lead to an increase in pitch. Is this garbage? Are soundtracks
ever/always digitally recorded? I know nothing about this stuff...

Si

Si

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:22:31 +0100, "Jonathan"
<> wrote:

>I'm also struggling to replicate the 'PAL speedup' phenomenon - I have a
>couple of PAL music DVDs with videos containing identical soundtracks to the
>versions I own on CD, and by exactly synchronising them (to as reasonable a
>degree of accuracy as can be expected) I've found that they not only play at
>exactly the same pitch, but remain in sync throughout the length of the
>track.

Note that the PAL speedup issue only applies to *films* which were
originally shot at 24fps.

It doesn't apply to music videos, which probably originated from a
25fps PAL source anyway.

--
Mike

Mike G

"PaulStation" <> wrote in message
news:bfokq4$gq4f9$...
> Sam wrote:
> > I have read that NTSC DVDs play films at the correct speed and
pitch,
> > whereas PAL DVDs effectively play 25 frames per second rather than
> > 24. This results in a speed up of 1/24 or 4.016666% for PAL, and
> > therefore an increase in pitch of just under 1 semitone. (1 semitone
> > up would correspond to an increase of about 5.95%)
> >
> > I happen to have Army of Darkness in NTSC and PAL, and recorded a
> > recognisable part of music from each into my PC.
> >
> > The NTSC music clip lasts 50 seconds; the same music clip from the
> > PAL DVD lasts 48 seconds. So far, as expected. However I _cannot_
> > hear any difference in pitch at all!
> >
> > Believe me, it's not my ears - I have played the piano for over 15
> > years, and I am sure I could tell a difference of even half a
> > semitone without difficulty.
> >
> > Perhaps some DVD players convert the pitch automatically? My player
> > is a Wharfedale 750 (original model, but with most recent firmware).
>
> IIRC, some PAL DVDs have their pitch corrected- so maybe this is the
case (I
> think this is the case with the LOTR DVD- but I could be wrong).
>
> To be honest, the decreased resolution and 3:2 pulldown on NTSC video
annoys
> the hell out of me (a lot more than any amount of change in pitch
could).
> I've only ever noticed the pitch change when a tune that I really like
is
> played in a film- but other than that it doesn't bother me.
>
> --

The NTSC 3:2 pull down has one interlaced frame made from two different
film frames. This causes a nasty "feathering" artifact on pans / rpaid
motion etc. This is why "Progressive" Scan is more popular in USA. It
solves a problem PAL doesnt have.

All most all DVDs for PAL50 from 24 fps Film have the audio "pitch
corrected" at the authoring stage. I havn't heard of a player that can
do it.

There is one place perhaps Brasil that uses PAL 60. Then it would be 3:2
pull down like NTSC 60.

PAL is 720 x 576 no pull down
NTSC is 720 x 480 with 3:2 pull down

Visually I'd defy anyone to notice the 5% speed error on PAL. The audio
is corrected, so overall a PAL transfer from film will be sharper and
less artifacts than an NTSC one.

The only thing I would want NTSC DVD for is NTSC orignated non-HD video.
Obviously for PAL originated Tape the PAL DVD is better.

My TV unlike most USA models but not uncommon outside USA, does PAL and
NTSC natively so I get no conversion artifacts from DVD or Satellite
Reception.

The "mostly PAL" S-VHS does mad things (as is common with VHS) to play
NTSC in an approximation to PAL. I'm not sure if it slows down (30 fps
to 25fps) or simply plays PAL 60 format, probabily the latter.

But we don't much worry about VHS in this NG )


--
Watty
IRELAND (PAL-I 625 line / 50Hz / 25 fps)

Watty

In article <>,
says...
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:22:31 +0100, "Jonathan"
> <> wrote:
>
> >I'm also struggling to replicate the 'PAL speedup' phenomenon - I have a
> >couple of PAL music DVDs with videos containing identical soundtracks to the
> >versions I own on CD, and by exactly synchronising them (to as reasonable a
> >degree of accuracy as can be expected) I've found that they not only play at
> >exactly the same pitch, but remain in sync throughout the length of the
> >track.
>
> Note that the PAL speedup issue only applies to *films* which were
> originally shot at 24fps.
>
> It doesn't apply to music videos, which probably originated from a
> 25fps PAL source anyway.

Add to that, musicvideos shot in NTSC are usually framerate converted to
PAL for Europe, so the pitch/speed of the audio remains unchanged.


--
Rid

Ridwan Hughes

The original r2 issue of Romeo & Juliet (the Baz Lurrman one) had a
noticeable pitch shift. yuk.

Weirdly my Loewe Tv is actually better with NTSC than it is with PAL - I
think the Loewe does some sort of internal progressive scan on NTSC
signals to remove 3:2 pulldown. Whatever it does it looks nicer than PAL.

Nic Pillinger

"The dog from that film you saw" <> wrote in
message

> I have read that NTSC DVDs play films at the correct speed and pitch,
> whereas PAL DVDs effectively play 25 frames per second rather than 24.
> This results in a speed up of 1/24 or 4.016666% for PAL, and therefore
> an increase in pitch of just under 1 semitone. (1 semitone up would
> correspond to an increase of about 5.95%)
>
> I happen to have Army of Darkness in NTSC and PAL, and recorded a
> recognisable part of music from each into my PC.
>
> The NTSC music clip lasts 50 seconds; the same music clip from the PAL
> DVD lasts 48 seconds. So far, as expected. However I _cannot_ hear any
> difference in pitch at all!
>
> Believe me, it's not my ears - I have played the piano for over 15
> years, and I am sure I could tell a difference of even half a semitone
> without difficulty.

<<I must be a musical genius then! if you watch a film with a song in
it - a song you are at all familiar with, the difference stands out a
mile. it always used to confuse me - i knew
something was up back at the age of 7 or 8 even though i never had a
clue as to what could possibly be the cause. for me it's pitch, not
tempo.>>


You don't need to have perfect pitch to notice a speed increase of 4%.
There are people who think that movies played on the sped-up PAL system
are a form of audio vandalism since PAL produces a "sped-up chipmunk
version" of the original movie. Some people go on and on about how
movies on DVD should be presented in their original theatrical aspect
ratio, just as the director intended. On the other hand, some of these
same people don't care that the theatrical sound is being compromised
when the a movie is sped up by 4%.

I just dug out the owner's manual to my turntable and it says that it
provides an 8% speed variation (plus or minus 4%) and that would be one
semitone, or a half tone. While the PAL system's 4% speed up of a
quarter tone would not be in sync with a properly tuned instrument, such
as a piano or guitar, this higher pitch wouldn't be particularly
noticeable to most people. But some people find this 4% increase in
pitch and tempo so annoying that they can't bear to listen to it.

However, the increase in tempo would be far more noticeable on
traditional, familiar music which so often accompanies movies. If PAL
movies, such as _American Graffiti_, or _A Hard Day's Night_, featured
sped up versions of familiar songs, they would not sound right to a lot
of people.

I am only speaking from my experience with the speed changes that I have
been able to make with my turntable. I just accelerated my Dual 604
Electronic Direct Drive turntable by 4% and played my Japanese
half-speed mastered _Sgt. Pepper_ album. "Lucy In The Sky With
Diamonds", "She´s Leaving Home" and "Lovely Rita" are noticeably off key
and sound too fast. Harps, violins and piano don't benefit from an
increase of a quarter semitone in pitch. John Lennon's vocal in "A Day
In The Life" is obviously too high in pitch and too fast in tempo. But
this is very familiar material and there is no way that I would not
notice a 4% increase in speed.

Most of my record collection consists of albums which have value for
their covers rather than the LP inside. I have The Rolling Stones _Some
Girls_ album, with all of the faces, the original Lynyrd Skynyrd _Street
Survivors_ fire cover and Big Brother's _Cheap Thrills_, with the Robert
Crumb cover. So, I tried playing these albums and, though the songs
sounded too fast, the speed increase wasn't as noticeable as it was on
Sgt. Pepper. Most noticeably off key was Janis Joplin's "Summertime",
which just didn't sound right.

On the other hand, these are LPs and not movies. I do think that I can
safely speculate that sped up PAL versions of _Amadeus_ and _2001_ would
have me climbing the walls in short order. But the truth is that I am
basing my opinion on the reports of others, such as WMAT, who (in one of
my earlier posts) was quoted on what he had to say about a specific
title: "The tonal quality of the actor's voices, and the mood created by
the background music all change the way you perceive the movie. For
instance in _Matilda_ when Matilda is in the parents bedroom, the music
in the NTSC has a sense of expectation. In the PAL version that is all
gone and it simply sounds frantic. In the same way Danny Devito's voice
over sounds more hurried in the PAL version.

Henrik 'Leopold' Herranen, on his webpage _How Film Is Transferred to
Video_ wrote: "I found watching one my favourite movies, Pink Floyd's
The Wall, to be painful on PAL video because the songs were out of tune
and too fast. Otherwise I haven't had problems with the wrong speed of
PAL video."

Based on my experience with my turntable and the testimony of many
others, I can say, with near certainty, that sped up PAL movies won't
sound as good to me as their real-time NTSC counterparts.

The fact that attempts have been made to correct the pitch of some PAL
discs indicates that there are more than a few audiophiles who find that
the sped up PAL sound offends to their ears.

Here is some information from my archives dated February 26, 1999. There
was a discussion underway as to the advantages and disadvantages of the
NTSC system and the PAL system:

Fraser:

I may have been wrong about the "universal DVD disk" theory. Go the DVD
newsgroup and do a search for the subject: "All PAL movies are sped up!"
Kevin Attwood and WMAT are the ones to pay attention to under this
heading. I am completely rethinking my strategy as far as getting a
Region Free player is concerned.

If you don't find the information, I have made a composite file
detailing the main points made by the two authors:

Kevin Attwood:

It appears that all PAL titles are approximately 4 percent faster than
the original theatrical releases and the NTSC equivalents. It seems that
the film is sped up from 24 to 25 frames per second to take the easy way
out to transfer movies to video format. This applies to off-air
broadcasts, tapes, laser discs, and DVDs! NTSC times are the same as
the theatrical releases.

All titles of DVDs that I have compared USA to Australia release of the
same movies have this problem.
Examples:
Matilda - NTSC 98 minutes, PAL 94 minutes.
Forbidden Planet - NTSC 98 minutes, PAL 94 minutes.
Jason and the Argonauts - NTSC 104 minutes, PAL 102 minutes.

Why are we paying for PAL DVDs which aren't presented as the producers
of the movies intended? This is a warning to those people thinking of
buying Region 2 and 4 PAL disks to avoid the FOX and Paramount fiasco.
Does anyone know why this has been allowed to happen?

WMAT:

This may have been around since PAL began but it doesn't change the fact
that PAL transfers are shortchanging the public and the film makers.
I've compared the NTSC and PAL versions as he has said and I find that
the extra speed influences the sound very noticeably.

The tonal quality of the actor's voices, and the mood created by the
background music all change the way you perceive the movie. For instance
in 'Matilda' when Matilda is in the parents bedroom, the music in the
NTSC has a sense of expectation. In the PAL version that is all gone and
it simply sounds frantic. In the same way Danny Devito's voice over
sounds more hurried in the PAL version.

A four percent increase in pitch is noticeable - just ask any musician.
Since the effect and mood created by music is not only conveyed by the
notes that are played, but the phrasing and tempo as well, to remove the
intended effect of the tempo of the music (and the timbre of the actors
voices) just because it is easier to speed up the film for a transfer is
vandalism.

Since the actors and sound engineers work hard at their art it is a
shame that we can only hear the speeded up chipmunk version of what they
intended when played on our PAL disks. It's been going on for as long as
PAL has been around.

Scot Gardner

the easiest way to hear or see an annoying artefact is to listen/look for
it. if I told you of all the artefacts that are noticeable in TV pictures,
and sound you would never enjoy your equipment again, well not for a long
time while you try to un notice them. as a video/TV engineer I have had to
have these things pointed out to me so as to be able to tell the difference
between normal and a fault.

The more you look the more you will see.

TV is an optical illusion. you are not seeing a picture you are seeing a
single spot flying over a screen. it is doing it fast and so you think you
see a picture in the same way car wheels look solid when rotating.

a 1000 hz tone will play back at 1040hz . as the frequency rises so the it
is less noticeable.

I used to repair a lot of cassette players and very few were witching 5% of
the spec. in fact almost all the nearest to spec were rounded up to the
nearest metric measurement this was £700 + equipment. as for the cheap stuff
10% was more like the target.




"Scot Gardner" <> wrote in message
news:20030724221042.865$...
> "The dog from that film you saw" <> wrote in
> message
>
> > I have read that NTSC DVDs play films at the correct speed and pitch,
> > whereas PAL DVDs effectively play 25 frames per second rather than 24.
> > This results in a speed up of 1/24 or 4.016666% for PAL, and therefore
> > an increase in pitch of just under 1 semitone. (1 semitone up would
> > correspond to an increase of about 5.95%)
> >
> > I happen to have Army of Darkness in NTSC and PAL, and recorded a
> > recognisable part of music from each into my PC.
> >
> > The NTSC music clip lasts 50 seconds; the same music clip from the PAL
> > DVD lasts 48 seconds. So far, as expected. However I _cannot_ hear any
> > difference in pitch at all!
> >
> > Believe me, it's not my ears - I have played the piano for over 15
> > years, and I am sure I could tell a difference of even half a semitone
> > without difficulty.
>
> <<I must be a musical genius then! if you watch a film with a song in
> it - a song you are at all familiar with, the difference stands out a
> mile. it always used to confuse me - i knew
> something was up back at the age of 7 or 8 even though i never had a
> clue as to what could possibly be the cause. for me it's pitch, not
> tempo.>>
>
>
> You don't need to have perfect pitch to notice a speed increase of 4%.
> There are people who think that movies played on the sped-up PAL system
> are a form of audio vandalism since PAL produces a "sped-up chipmunk
> version" of the original movie. Some people go on and on about how
> movies on DVD should be presented in their original theatrical aspect
> ratio, just as the director intended. On the other hand, some of these
> same people don't care that the theatrical sound is being compromised
> when the a movie is sped up by 4%.
>
> I just dug out the owner's manual to my turntable and it says that it
> provides an 8% speed variation (plus or minus 4%) and that would be one
> semitone, or a half tone. While the PAL system's 4% speed up of a
> quarter tone would not be in sync with a properly tuned instrument, such
> as a piano or guitar, this higher pitch wouldn't be particularly
> noticeable to most people. But some people find this 4% increase in
> pitch and tempo so annoying that they can't bear to listen to it.
>
> However, the increase in tempo would be far more noticeable on
> traditional, familiar music which so often accompanies movies. If PAL
> movies, such as _American Graffiti_, or _A Hard Day's Night_, featured
> sped up versions of familiar songs, they would not sound right to a lot
> of people.
>
> I am only speaking from my experience with the speed changes that I have
> been able to make with my turntable. I just accelerated my Dual 604
> Electronic Direct Drive turntable by 4% and played my Japanese
> half-speed mastered _Sgt. Pepper_ album. "Lucy In The Sky With
> Diamonds", "She´s Leaving Home" and "Lovely Rita" are noticeably off key
> and sound too fast. Harps, violins and piano don't benefit from an
> increase of a quarter semitone in pitch. John Lennon's vocal in "A Day
> In The Life" is obviously too high in pitch and too fast in tempo. But
> this is very familiar material and there is no way that I would not
> notice a 4% increase in speed.
>
> Most of my record collection consists of albums which have value for
> their covers rather than the LP inside. I have The Rolling Stones _Some
> Girls_ album, with all of the faces, the original Lynyrd Skynyrd _Street
> Survivors_ fire cover and Big Brother's _Cheap Thrills_, with the Robert
> Crumb cover. So, I tried playing these albums and, though the songs
> sounded too fast, the speed increase wasn't as noticeable as it was on
> Sgt. Pepper. Most noticeably off key was Janis Joplin's "Summertime",
> which just didn't sound right.
>
> On the other hand, these are LPs and not movies. I do think that I can
> safely speculate that sped up PAL versions of _Amadeus_ and _2001_ would
> have me climbing the walls in short order. But the truth is that I am
> basing my opinion on the reports of others, such as WMAT, who (in one of
> my earlier posts) was quoted on what he had to say about a specific
> title: "The tonal quality of the actor's voices, and the mood created by
> the background music all change the way you perceive the movie. For
> instance in _Matilda_ when Matilda is in the parents bedroom, the music
> in the NTSC has a sense of expectation. In the PAL version that is all
> gone and it simply sounds frantic. In the same way Danny Devito's voice
> over sounds more hurried in the PAL version.
>
> Henrik 'Leopold' Herranen, on his webpage _How Film Is Transferred to
> Video_ wrote: "I found watching one my favourite movies, Pink Floyd's
> The Wall, to be painful on PAL video because the songs were out of tune
> and too fast. Otherwise I haven't had problems with the wrong speed of
> PAL video."
>
> Based on my experience with my turntable and the testimony of many
> others, I can say, with near certainty, that sped up PAL movies won't
> sound as good to me as their real-time NTSC counterparts.
>
> The fact that attempts have been made to correct the pitch of some PAL
> discs indicates that there are more than a few audiophiles who find that
> the sped up PAL sound offends to their ears.
>
> Here is some information from my archives dated February 26, 1999. There
> was a discussion underway as to the advantages and disadvantages of the
> NTSC system and the PAL system:
>
> Fraser:
>
> I may have been wrong about the "universal DVD disk" theory. Go the DVD
> newsgroup and do a search for the subject: "All PAL movies are sped up!"
> Kevin Attwood and WMAT are the ones to pay attention to under this
> heading. I am completely rethinking my strategy as far as getting a
> Region Free player is concerned.
>
> If you don't find the information, I have made a composite file
> detailing the main points made by the two authors:
>
> Kevin Attwood:
>
> It appears that all PAL titles are approximately 4 percent faster than
> the original theatrical releases and the NTSC equivalents. It seems that
> the film is sped up from 24 to 25 frames per second to take the easy way
> out to transfer movies to video format. This applies to off-air
> broadcasts, tapes, laser discs, and DVDs! NTSC times are the same as
> the theatrical releases.
>
> All titles of DVDs that I have compared USA to Australia release of the
> same movies have this problem.
> Examples:
> Matilda - NTSC 98 minutes, PAL 94 minutes.
> Forbidden Planet - NTSC 98 minutes, PAL 94 minutes.
> Jason and the Argonauts - NTSC 104 minutes, PAL 102 minutes.
>
> Why are we paying for PAL DVDs which aren't presented as the producers
> of the movies intended? This is a warning to those people thinking of
> buying Region 2 and 4 PAL disks to avoid the FOX and Paramount fiasco.
> Does anyone know why this has been allowed to happen?
>
> WMAT:
>
> This may have been around since PAL began but it doesn't change the fact
> that PAL transfers are shortchanging the public and the film makers.
> I've compared the NTSC and PAL versions as he has said and I find that
> the extra speed influences the sound very noticeably.
>
> The tonal quality of the actor's voices, and the mood created by the
> background music all change the way you perceive the movie. For instance
> in 'Matilda' when Matilda is in the parents bedroom, the music in the
> NTSC has a sense of expectation. In the PAL version that is all gone and
> it simply sounds frantic. In the same way Danny Devito's voice over
> sounds more hurried in the PAL version.
>
> A four percent increase in pitch is noticeable - just ask any musician.
> Since the effect and mood created by music is not only conveyed by the
> notes that are played, but the phrasing and tempo as well, to remove the
> intended effect of the tempo of the music (and the timbre of the actors
> voices) just because it is easier to speed up the film for a transfer is
> vandalism.
>
> Since the actors and sound engineers work hard at their art it is a
> shame that we can only hear the speeded up chipmunk version of what they
> intended when played on our PAL disks. It's been going on for as long as
> PAL has been around.
>
>
>

prof