«

<< shouldn't, y'know, "Project A-ko" turn up on a few of the Akira
Brigade's lists? >>

Someone mentioned it... I love it when this argument comes around because it's
interesting (even after all these years) to hear people's justifications for
"Evangelion" and "Akira"... and yes, I own and have sat through them myself
several times in an attempt to chew the material... finding stuff that actually
meets with the term "Good Anime" is definitely subjective and I would never
call the art-house stuff garbage in any respect but to quote another animation
high-water-mark South Park...

"I mean, come on..."

<< Wouldn't recommend Excel Saga JUST yet, due to the high concentration of
jokes you have to have "been there" to get. >>

Agreed... I just wanted to plant it there for the future because it's an anime
fan's salvation.

Derek, even though your detractors are sort of correct in that you haven't
coughed up some prefs of your own, fight the good fight on behalf of the
newbs... somebody has to.

Oh... and F-CK EBERT'S Prototypical Pastey Fanboy -SS!!! He knows SH-T about
anything... just take his own cinematic efforts into consideration: Russ Meyer
wasn't a genius, he was a guy who had enough patter in him to get busty chicks
to shake it topless for him on-camera (the original 'Girls Gone Wild' guy if
you ask me)... anyone who holds such material as art is in dire need of a
blowjob... anyone who sits around and "co-writes" a script for such a project
has obviously NEVER HAD ONE IN HIS LIFE. Fat, sexually retarded turd.

"Those who CAN, DO... those who CAN'T, become CRITICS."

(And yes, I understand that with this post I join my ranks of 'critic' in a
way).

PS - 'Mononoke' had decent voice acting? Not on THIS side of the ocean, it
didn't... Billy Bob Thorazine, anyone? Perhaps he could have reviewed the
script before entering the isolation booth to record... that mighta helped a
bit.

Wade365 wrote:

> Someone mentioned it... I love it when this argument comes around because it's
> interesting (even after all these years) to hear people's justifications for
> "Evangelion" and "Akira"... and yes, I own and have sat through them myself
> several times in an attempt to chew the material... finding stuff that actually
> meets with the term "Good Anime" is definitely subjective and I would never
> call the art-house stuff garbage in any respect but to quote another animation
> high-water-mark South Park...
>
> "I mean, come on..."
>

Justifications? Maybe we just like it. Ever think of that? Maybe we
like movies that give you something to think about, or aren't entirely
clear and require multiple viewings to fully appreciate.

> Derek, even though your detractors are sort of correct in that you haven't
> coughed up some prefs of your own, fight the good fight on behalf of the
> newbs... somebody has to.
>

I'm a newbie, I've seen Vampire Hunter D, Akira, Ghost in the Shell,
Ninja Scroll, and four Miyazaki films. That's it, so far. Whoever
Derek's fighting for it isn't for me.

> "Those who CAN, DO... those who CAN'T, become CRITICS."
>

He's the critic I hate the least though. When he's good, he's very
good. But sometimes I disagree with him so vehemently I want to rip his
wig off.

> PS - 'Mononoke' had decent voice acting? Not on THIS side of the ocean, it
> didn't... Billy Bob Thorazine, anyone? Perhaps he could have reviewed the
> script before entering the isolation booth to record... that mighta helped a
> bit.
>

Why does everybody criticize the voice acting? Aren't you listening to
the original Japanese? Sorry, but how can you consider yourself a fan
if you aren't listening to the original Japanese?

--
"It is dark, you are likely to be eaten by a grue."
--Zork

Grand Inquisitor
http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=Oost

<< Maybe we
like movies that give you something to think about, >>

I'm tempted to quote Woody Allen here but I won't.


<< Whoever
Derek's fighting for it isn't for me. >>

Quit taking generalizations made to a newsgroup so literally and/or
personally...

<< Why does everybody criticize the voice acting? Aren't you listening to
the original Japanese? Sorry, but how can you consider yourself a fan
if you aren't listening to the original Japanese? >>

Should I be reading this in the Comic Book Guy voice?

"Wade365" <> wrote in message
news:...
: << Maybe we
: like movies that give you something to think about, >>
:
: I'm tempted to quote Woody Allen here but I won't.
:
:
: << Whoever
: Derek's fighting for it isn't for me. >>
:
: Quit taking generalizations made to a newsgroup so literally and/or
: personally...
:
: << Why does everybody criticize the voice acting? Aren't you listening to
: the original Japanese? Sorry, but how can you consider yourself a fan
: if you aren't listening to the original Japanese? >>
:
: Should I be reading this in the Comic Book Guy voice?
:

I dont dig dubbing or losing visual focus of the film by not paying
attention to the on-screen action and paying attention to subtitles -
because I speak english and understand english being spoken to me - not
Japanese and why would I want to watch a film in a language I cannot
understand?

"George Hernandez" <no_email@no_domain.pud> wrote in
news:awBLa.43242$. net:

>

>:
>
> I dont dig dubbing or losing visual focus of the film by
> not paying attention to the on-screen action and paying
> attention to subtitles - because I speak english and
> understand english being spoken to me - not Japanese and
> why would I want to watch a film in a language I cannot
> understand?
>
>
>

Largely because they seem to understand what they are doing much
better than the english voice actors they get in. Every english
track I've tried has been horribly overacted & unsympathetic to
the material.

"George Hernandez" <no_email@no_domain.pud> wrote
> I dont dig dubbing or losing visual focus of the film by not paying
> attention to the on-screen action and paying attention to subtitles -
> because I speak english and understand english being spoken to me - not
> Japanese and why would I want to watch a film in a language I cannot
> understand?

I'm confused. You don't like dubbing *or* subtitles? Are you
planning on watching anime on mute?

I'm guessing you just don't like original language with subtitles,
so I'll address that. While you may not be able to understand
Japanese, you are still able to understand inflection and
emphasis, and therefore emotion, when listening to it. So
while the subtitles give you the meaning of what they are
saying, the original audio gives you the emotional context of
those words.

In a dub, that emotional context can be changed.
It may be as simple as the voice for the dub not being as
deep as the original voice, meaning the dub voice exerts
less authority, diminishing a character. Most often though,
the dubs are just bad, with people reading the translated
script in a very flat and rushed tone. A lot of the emotional
content can then be lost.

Another reason for subtitles is that they are often a more
accurate translation of the original script. Dubs very
often have to alter the dialogue so as to fit the mouth
movements on screen. This is why the dub dialogue
often sounds rushed. The dub dialogue is sometimes
either edited down to very simple sentences, making
the show sound not very well written, or it can be
changed to mean something totally different from what
was originally said. So subtitles are preferable in
that they usually offer a more accurate translation.

As for wanting to watch the on-screen action and
not be distracted by reading, I find reading subtitles
not distracting at all. Sure, initially it takes some
getting used to, and if you're a slow reader it
might be very distracting at first. However, your
mind adapts, and soon reading subtitles becomes
second nature. I find I'm able to both read subtitles
*and* watch the action fairly easily.

Of course, not all dubs are created equal, and some
dubs can be very well done. SPIRITED AWAY
had an excellent dub, with a great script and great
new voice acting. The English dub for COWBOY
BEBOP is considered by many anime fans to be
superior to the original Japanese. Ultimately,
the choice comes down to personal preference.
If you prefer listening to English dubs that is your
choice, but you should understand that one
choice is not automatically better than the other,
and each has its drawbacks and advantages.

Not for the pedantic: Yes, I know that technically
for most anime *all* dialogue tracks are dubs,
since even the original Japanese track is recorded
after the animation was done. However, the
Japanese track is the first one recorded, usually
supervised by the director, and while the
animation isn't animated in sync with dialogue,
it is animated with the Japanese dialogue in mind.

-Jay

(Wade365) wrote in
news::

> << Every english
> track I've tried has been horribly overacted &
> unsympathetic to the material. >>
>
>
> Cowboy Bebop, Spriggan, Exel Saga, Hellsing, Soul Taker,
> most Gundam spin-offs...
>
> ... and though I hate to bring it up because everyone does,
> SPIRITED AWAY...
>
> These series all have excellent ADR work for the English
> translation and voice acting (although I realize the
> original post has said Bebop was not to their taste).
>
>
>

Nope I found much the same with the Bebop voice work, although I
only listened to about 15 mins worth.

Thanks Jay, for the record, you did guess correctly as to what I was
meaning. Here's my thing - I sometimes tend to be something of a lazy film
watcher, and almost always lazy when it comes to animation - I have no
intention or desire to need to anlayze an animated film's language and most
often than not, the time I usually have to watch these is on downtime that I
rarely get, and would probably wind up sleeping through it if all I was
listening to was jibberish

So while your explainations were very detailed and in-depth, I feel kind of
bad for you having possibly wasted your time on deaf ears - aesthetics,
inflections, rushed dialog and bad translations aside, Im not going to
bother with a film unless there's an English track - I unfortunately just
cant be bothered.

"Jay G" <> wrote in message
news:...
:
: "George Hernandez" <no_email@no_domain.pud> wrote
: > I dont dig dubbing or losing visual focus of the film by not paying
: > attention to the on-screen action and paying attention to subtitles -
: > because I speak english and understand english being spoken to me - not
: > Japanese and why would I want to watch a film in a language I cannot
: > understand?
:
: I'm confused. You don't like dubbing *or* subtitles? Are you
: planning on watching anime on mute?
:
: I'm guessing you just don't like original language with subtitles,
: so I'll address that. While you may not be able to understand
: Japanese, you are still able to understand inflection and
: emphasis, and therefore emotion, when listening to it. So
: while the subtitles give you the meaning of what they are
: saying, the original audio gives you the emotional context of
: those words.
:
: In a dub, that emotional context can be changed.
: It may be as simple as the voice for the dub not being as
: deep as the original voice, meaning the dub voice exerts
: less authority, diminishing a character. Most often though,
: the dubs are just bad, with people reading the translated
: script in a very flat and rushed tone. A lot of the emotional
: content can then be lost.
:
: Another reason for subtitles is that they are often a more
: accurate translation of the original script. Dubs very
: often have to alter the dialogue so as to fit the mouth
: movements on screen. This is why the dub dialogue
: often sounds rushed. The dub dialogue is sometimes
: either edited down to very simple sentences, making
: the show sound not very well written, or it can be
: changed to mean something totally different from what
: was originally said. So subtitles are preferable in
: that they usually offer a more accurate translation.
:
: As for wanting to watch the on-screen action and
: not be distracted by reading, I find reading subtitles
: not distracting at all. Sure, initially it takes some
: getting used to, and if you're a slow reader it
: might be very distracting at first. However, your
: mind adapts, and soon reading subtitles becomes
: second nature. I find I'm able to both read subtitles
: *and* watch the action fairly easily.
:
: Of course, not all dubs are created equal, and some
: dubs can be very well done. SPIRITED AWAY
: had an excellent dub, with a great script and great
: new voice acting. The English dub for COWBOY
: BEBOP is considered by many anime fans to be
: superior to the original Japanese. Ultimately,
: the choice comes down to personal preference.
: If you prefer listening to English dubs that is your
: choice, but you should understand that one
: choice is not automatically better than the other,
: and each has its drawbacks and advantages.
:
: Not for the pedantic: Yes, I know that technically
: for most anime *all* dialogue tracks are dubs,
: since even the original Japanese track is recorded
: after the animation was done. However, the
: Japanese track is the first one recorded, usually
: supervised by the director, and while the
: animation isn't animated in sync with dialogue,
: it is animated with the Japanese dialogue in mind.
:
: -Jay
:
:

"Lithurge" <> wrote ...
>
> Nope I found much the same with the Bebop voice work, although I
> only listened to about 15 mins worth.

Perhaps because you listened to the Japanese
first and got used to the characters that way?
It'd be like listening to an English dub of a
Jackie Chan film where someone else dubs
his voice. Although it might be a perfectly good
dub, and the voice actor my turn in a great
performance, we *know* what Jackie Chan's
voice sounds like now, so it'd still seem 'wrong,'

I know I watched Bebop in Japanese first, because
I hadn't heard about the dub being good, and I
like watching films/shows in their original language.
When I heard the dub was high quality, I tried
listening to it, but the voices were 'wrong'. I already
had the characters associated with their Japanese
voices, so the dub did not align with what I thought
the characters should sound like.

Or perhaps you're just too used to listening to
anime in Japanese. Anime is composed of
various styles and genres, but it all gets lumped
together in most of our minds. Therefore,
when your mind thinks of anime, it expects
Japanese audio, the way you nearly always
listen to it. It's for this reason that I think
Japanese audio tracks were put on the
Animatrix DVD. Even though the English
tracks could arguable be called the 'original'
and intended audio track, anime fans expect
their anime to be in Japanese with subtitles.

Or maybe you just think the English dub for
Bebop is bad. After all, taste is subjective.
Some people even thought the dub for
Princess Mononoke was decent.

-Jay

"Jay G" <> wrote in
news::

>
> "Lithurge" <> wrote ...
>>
>> Nope I found much the same with the Bebop voice work,
>> although I only listened to about 15 mins worth.
>
> Perhaps because you listened to the Japanese
> first and got used to the characters that way?
> It'd be like listening to an English dub of a
> Jackie Chan film where someone else dubs
> his voice. Although it might be a perfectly good
> dub, and the voice actor my turn in a great
> performance, we *know* what Jackie Chan's
> voice sounds like now, so it'd still seem 'wrong,'
>

I think that is possibly the reason, but I'm not entirely
convinced to be honest. For example Golgo 13 The
Professional, I picked this up with the English dub (only
seems to be available that way) and think it's been done
really well. However got the R2 Detonator Orgun (which is
English Dub only) and it's appalling, of course I've watched
quite a few more anime in between the two. I'll have to give
Golgo another go to see.

As for your Jackie Chan point I have never managed to sit
through Snake & Crane Art of Shaolin with its, again, awful
dub. Don't get me wrong I have no objection to people
watching these things dubbed if that's what they prefer, I
just like to have the option of the original language &
subtitles.

It's not even that I expect the lip synch to be perferct,
having watched Boogiepop Phantom this afternoon, there is one
scene in the 1st episode where the speech/lip movement is
out, but it still looked & sounded right.

>
> Or perhaps you're just too used to listening to
> anime in Japanese. Anime is composed of
> various styles and genres, but it all gets lumped
> together in most of our minds. Therefore,
> when your mind thinks of anime, it expects
> Japanese audio, the way you nearly always
> listen to it.

Interesting theory, but I think it's the listen to the
original actrors, saying the original lines. I prefer to see
any film in its native format, which can be tricky with some
of the chinese ones, as they often seem to redub them from
cantonese to mandarin or vice versa.


> It's for this reason that I think
> Japanese audio tracks were put on the
> Animatrix DVD. Even though the English
> tracks could arguable be called the 'original'
> and intended audio track, anime fans expect
> their anime to be in Japanese with subtitles.

No Japanese on the R2 (uk) version, but again I would choose
to watch the English, as you say that is the 'original' dub.
Much like I believe Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust is actually
english first.


>
> Or maybe you just think the English dub for
> Bebop is bad. After all, taste is subjective.
> Some people even thought the dub for
> Princess Mononoke was decent.
>

Couldn't possibly comment on Mononoke