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Marianne Luban

j. fenious
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"Katherine Griffis-Greenberg" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On 31 Mar 2004 16:53:00 GMT, Removed)ospam (MarianneLuban)
> in sci.archaeology, wrote the following:
> >>Subject: Re: Marianne Luban
> >>From: "Steve Marcus" (E-Mail Removed)
> >>Date: 3/31/2004 2:47 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >>Message-id: <Vkxac.29077$oH2.20157@lakeread01>
> >>
> >>
> >>"MarianneLuban" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> >>news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> >>> >Subject: Re: Marianne Luban
> >>> >From: Never anonymous Bud (E-Mail Removed)
> >>> >Date: 3/30/2004 8:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >>> >Message-id: <(E-Mail Removed)>
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> >It just goes to show the stupidity of the legal system.
> >>> >
> >>> >One States Court claims invalid jurisdiction,
> >>> >but ALSO 'reverses' that other States judgment.
> >>> >
> >>> >Nonsensical.
> >>>
> >>> No, Buddy boy. It doesn't work that way.
> >>> One court *vacates* the judgment of another court for lack of in personam
> >>> jurisdiction over the defendant. It doesn't *reverse* the judgment of
> >>another
> >>> state. However, once the parties fully litigate the jurisdictional
> >>> question--that's it. It cannot be litigated again. Anywhere. Not even
> >>in
> >>> the originating state.
> >>
> >>That's simply wrong. You are confused (probably hopelessly) about the
> >>doctrine of res judicata, and the difference between the concept of
> >>enforcing a judgment obtained in State X in the courts of State Y as opposed
> >>to attempting to secure a judgment in State X, failing (that is losing a
> >>lawsuit on the merits as opposed to a procedural technicality), and then
> >>attempting to relitigate the merits in another court (whether in the same
> >>State or another State).
> >>
> >>See:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Which links the "full faith and credit clause" (Article IV) of the
> >>Constitution of the United States. See the part re judicial proceedings?
> >>How is it that Minnesota didn't give "full faith and credit to the Alabama
> >>judgment? Simple. Minnesota held that there was no jurisdiction over one
> >>of the parties, (a decision based upon lack of personal jurisdiction being a
> >>technicality, not a decision on the merits). But that doesn't bind, let's
> >>say Vermont, from giving "full faith and credit" to the Alabama judgment;
> >>how could it, since one could equally set up a paradox by arguing that the "
> >>full faith and credit" clause could bind Vermont to agree with both
> >>Minnesota and Alabama.
> >>
> >>No, Ms. Luban. Res judicata precludes a party to a lawsuit, who loses on
> >>the merits, from relitigating the identical issues. If Ms.
> >>Griffis-Greenberg had lost in Alabama, she could not have taken her case to
> >>Minnesota and tried it there all over again. But in the situation that you
> >>describe, she has a judgment, and absent a **Federal** holding that the
> >>judgment cannot be enforced, it _is_ enforceable in every state in the
> >>Union, unless that State holds it unenforceable on a jurisdictional matter,
> >>which has the effect of saying that "in this State, it isn't a real judgment
> >>at all since the court of the other State lacked jurisdiction."
> >>

> >
> >
> >>It is hardly suprising that one's "home court", as it were, ultimately
> >>issued a protectionist decision for one of its citizens. It happens all the
> >>time. Absent a Federal decision on the merits, it just means that in the
> >>injunction in unenforceable in Minnesota. And in case you aren't clear, a
> >>refusal by the United States Supreme Court to grant certiorari is generally
> >>regarded as not necessarily implying agreement with the position of either
> >>party.
> >>
> >>See, as one example:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>If you wish to discuss the matter further (with anyone, I've no real
> >>interest in discussing it with you except to get the matter the heck out of
> >>sci.archaeology where it does not belong), take it to moderated
> >>( is a zoo and no discussion there should be credited with any
> >>degree of accuracy).
> >>
> >>> That is why, if Griffis decided to enforce the
> >>> injunction in the state where I now live, my defense would still be the
> >>same as
> >>> before--lack of in personam jurisdiction at the time the injunction was
> >>> issued--and the doctrine of res judicata would collaterally estop Griffis
> >>from
> >>> going any further. Her injunction is worthless. She cannot get a new and
> >>> different ruling on the jurisdictional merits of the case.
> >>
> >>Simply wrong. See above

> >
> >Throughout this litigation, Griffis contended that the Full Faith and Credit
> >Clause required the courts of every other state to honor the Alabama judgment
> >that she had obtained by default. Now she contends that despite her fiercely
> >contesting the issue of personal jurisdiction all the way to the United States
> >Supreme Court, the Full Faith and Credit Clause somehow does not apply to the
> >decision of the Minnesota Supreme Court. That position is unjustified.
> >
> >Griffis sought relief in the courts of Minnesota and voluntarily submitted
> >herself to the courts of this State when she entered a general appearance in
> >this State and sought to enforce the Alabama judgment here. Cf. Durfee v.
> >Duke, 375 U.S. 106, 111 & n.8 (1963); Baldwin v. Iowa State Traveling Men's
> >Ass'n., 283 U.S. 522, 525-26 (1931).
> >
> >Because the courts of Minnesota had jurisdiction over Griffis, she is bound by
> >the decisions of Minnesota courts on the issues presented to those courts. Cf.
> >Baldwin, 283 U.S. at 525-26 ("Public policy dictates that there be an end of
> >litigation; that those who have contested an issue shall be bound by the result
> >of the contest; and that matters once tried shall be considered forever settled
> >as between the parties. We see no reason why this doctrine should not apply in
> >every case where one voluntarily appears, presents his case and is fully heard,
> >and why he should not, in the absence of fraud, be thereafter concluded by the
> >judgment of the tribunal to which he has submitted his cause.").
> >
> >The Minnesota Supreme Court squarely decided the issues of lack of personal
> >jurisdiction and the concomitant lack of any legal basis upon which the Alabama
> >court could have entered the judgment that Griffis sought to enforce. Griffis
> >v. Luban, 646 N.W.2d 527 (Minn. 2002), and Order dated September 17, 2002. The
> >decisions of the Minnesota Supreme Court are binding upon Griffis personally as
> >collateral estoppel and res judicata. In American Surety Company v. Baldwin,
> >287 U.S. 156, 166 (1932), the United States Supreme Court held:
> >The principles of res judicata apply to questions of jurisdiction as well as to
> >other issues. . The principles of res judicata may apply, although the
> >proceeding was begun by motion. Thus, a decision in a proceeding begun by
> >motion to set aside a judgment for want of jurisdiction is . res judicata,
> >and precludes a suit to enjoin enforcement of the judgment.
> >The present case similarly is a proceeding begun by motion to set aside the
> >Alabama judgment for want of jurisdiction, although the resulting decision here
> >was to void rather than to validate the Alabama judgment. The necessary effect
> >of the decision of the Minnesota Supreme Court is to preclude further attempts
> >by Griffis to enforce the Alabama judgment in any other location. Cf. Reed v.
> >Univ. of North Dakota, 589 N.W.2d 880, 885 (N.D. 1999) ("The Minnesota decision
> >is entitled to full faith and credit in North Dakota, . and res judicata
> >precludes Reed from thereafter maintaining an identical claim against UND in
> >North Dakota.").
> >The decisions of the Minnesota Supreme Court are entitled to full faith and
> >credit in every other state. U.S. CONST. art. IV, 1 ("Full Faith and Credit
> >shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial
> >Proceedings of every other State."); Durfee v. Duke, 375 U.S. 106, 111 (1963)
> >(a judgment is entitled to full faith and credit - even as to questions of
> >jurisdiction - when the subsequent court's inquiry discloses that those
> >questions have been fully and fairly litigated and finally decided in the court
> >which rendered the prior judgment); Lyon Fin. Serv., Inc. v. Waddill, 625
> >N.W.2d 155, 158 (Minn. App. 2001), review denied (Minn. June 19, 2001) ("A
> >state court judgment is entitled to full faith and credit in other states when
> >it is determined that questions have been fully and fairly litigated and
> >finally decided in the original court."); id. at 160 (California court's denial
> >of motion to dismiss proceeding to enforce default judgment obtained in
> >Minnesota was not binding in Minnesota upon subsequent motion to vacate default
> >judgment for lack of personal jurisdiction, but only because issues of personal
> >jurisdiction in fact were never fully and fairly litigated in California). The
> >courts of Alabama extend full faith and credit to the decisions of the courts
> >of Minnesota. See, e.g., Ex parte Lyon Fin. Serv., Inc., 775 So.2d 181, 183
> >(Ala. 2000).
> >
> >Cross posted to at the request of Steve Marcus.

> Actually, Marcus suggested it cross-posted to, if
> you bother to read the above, not
> And this above argument was rejected by the Ramsey County District
> Court, in Minnesota, in its Final Order, I might add.
> Just to keep the record straight.
> --
> Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, J.D.
> Not a practicing attorney, and no attorney-client relationship
> is created. This response is for discussion purposes only. It
> isn't meant to be legal advice. If you wish legal advice, seek
> out an attorney in your own state who is familar with your
> state's laws and applications thereof.

Kindly keep your bullshit newsgroup soap opera out of and get a life. removed from crosspost list.
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Mick Sterbs
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"j. fenious" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...

> Kindly keep your bullshit newsgroup soap opera out of and get a

> removed from crosspost list.

So not only do you repost the WHOLE bloody thing in its entirety, but you do
it twice.
Well done, you are a bloody genius.

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