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Re: Copyright proof for digital images

 
 
zuuum
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-06-2004
In fact, one could use posting to a webserver into non-public directories as
proof of date of possession as much as the old trick of mailing a document
to yourself through the USPS. But, in the former case there would be no way
to "tamper with the envelop", unless you conspired with the ISP, so it would
be superior to the latter. It is a rediculous cludge, but technically, the
server's logged file transfer date and time would probably stand in court.
Now, the practicality of archiving all your work in such a manner is pretty
much absurd.

"zuuum" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:...
> His logged post of the image on the server will prove it's date of origin,
> even more than any embedded file info
>
> Duh!
>
>
> "TenKMan" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > Why is top posting a problem?
> >
> >
> > "Alan Browne" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > news:fDkKb.89855$(E-Mail Removed). ..
> > > Techno Aussie wrote:
> > >
> > > > You're kidding, right?
> > > > Would you actually do that sort of thing?
> > > >
> > > > "Alan Browne" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > > > news:zm_Jb.25777$(E-Mail Removed)...
> > > >
> > > >>. For example,
> > > >>if I rip off an image from Bret Douglas, like the full detail hawk

> > image
> > > >>he posted recently on pbase, I could use a binary editor to change

> > the
> > > >>date and whatever other little details may please me and then claim

> > it
> > > >>as my own.
> > >
> > >
> > > First off, please stop top posting.
> > >
> > > Secondly, if you don't recognize it as an "example" as opposed to
> > > intent, then any other discussion is moot.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
> > >

> >
> >

>
>



 
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Ken Weitzel
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-06-2004
Hi...

Answer at the bottom...

zuuum wrote:
> In fact, one could use posting to a webserver into non-public directories as
> proof of date of possession as much as the old trick of mailing a document
> to yourself through the USPS. But, in the former case there would be no way
> to "tamper with the envelop", unless you conspired with the ISP, so it would
> be superior to the latter. It is a rediculous cludge, but technically, the
> server's logged file transfer date and time would probably stand in court.
> Now, the practicality of archiving all your work in such a manner is pretty
> much absurd.
>
> "zuuum" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:...
>
>>His logged post of the image on the server will prove it's date of origin,
>>even more than any embedded file info
>>
>>Duh!
>>
>>
>>"TenKMan" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>
>>>Why is top posting a problem?
>>>
>>>
>>>"Alan Browne" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>news:fDkKb.89855$(E-Mail Removed) et...
>>>
>>>>Techno Aussie wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>You're kidding, right?
>>>>>Would you actually do that sort of thing?
>>>>>
>>>>>"Alan Browne" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>>>news:zm_Jb.25777$(E-Mail Removed) et...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>. For example,
>>>>>>if I rip off an image from Bret Douglas, like the full detail hawk
>>>>>
>>>image
>>>
>>>>>>he posted recently on pbase, I could use a binary editor to change
>>>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>>>>date and whatever other little details may please me and then claim
>>>>>
>>>it
>>>
>>>>>>as my own.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>First off, please stop top posting.
>>>>
>>>>Secondly, if you don't recognize it as an "example" as opposed to
>>>>intent, then any other discussion is moot.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
>>>>



Sorry, the word or file date or whatever from any ISP
is going to be worth less than a grain of salt in any
court.

On the other hand, the weight of a hand cancelled
postmark from any post office - Canada Post, the USPS,
the Royal Mail, etc will be overwhelming.

Take care.

Ken

 
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Michael Benveniste
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-07-2004
On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 05:16:30 GMT, Ken Weitzel <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>Sorry, the word or file date or whatever from any ISP
>is going to be worth less than a grain of salt in any
>court.


I can't speak for Canadian law, but I know of several U.S. cases where
a court or an arbitrator has decided a case based on computer
generated timestamps.

Like any other record, a timestamp can be forged or altered, and
the opposing side is free to attack such an offering through testimony
and cross examination. Likewise, the side making the offering can and
usually does present corrorating evidence, such as operator testimony,
system logs, or backup tapes.

There are better approaches, such as secure digital timestamps and
electronic signatures, but for a civil case

>On the other hand, the weight of a hand cancelled
>postmark from any post office - Canada Post, the USPS,
>the Royal Mail, etc will be overwhelming.


An interesting view, given how trivial it is to forge such a
mark.

--
Michael Benveniste -- http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
Spam and UCE professionally evaluated for $250. Use this email
address only to submit mail for evaluation.


 
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cf
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-07-2004
You referred to file date on the server as proof of date, of course this
will be wiped clean, if the server uses backup system that rewrite them
during the backup, in which the file date will always change at the time of
backup, or during a disk recovery after a system breakdown.

However zuuum refered to the server's log file that record the date of the
files being uploaded, if it exists, it could served as proof of date, which
the court inevitably has to accept whether it is customary for them to
accept it as proof or not. It is critical to check whether the server kept
such a permanent log file, before use this method as proof of date.

Whereas the weight of a hand cancelled postmark from any post office will
always risk the challenge from the accused that the envelope has being
tempered, and that it is easy for a thief to opened any old envelop with a
date stamp older than yours and place the image file inside to claim its
ownership. If people can make counterfeit note, no reason why they cannot
open a sealed evelope and sealed it back. Or simply mail an unsealed envelop
to themselves for their later use, this does not require any technical
expertise. Unless the envelop is mailed to a person with authority, such as
attorney, there is a risk that the envelop you mailed to yourself failed to
withstand the challenged of the accused that it has being tempered,
especially when the accused claimed to possessed the image file in an
envelop older than yours. Since the court customary take date stamp of
envelop as proof of date, there is no reason why they cannot take the date
stamp on the accused's envelop as proof.

Therefore, other better, cheaper alternative would be to take a photography
of yourself holding the printed image in front of a date sign in recognised
private or public places, such as in a large annoucement board, or scene of
any anniversary events with a big notice board. Later if scrutinized, you
would have the owners of the places to verified the time of the scene taken.

The above best apply to copyright proof for textual documents, for digital
images, simply retaining uncropped original, or raw file to yourself is
sufficient.



On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 05:16:30 GMT, Ken Weitzel <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>zuuum wrote:
>> In fact, one could use posting to a webserver into non-public directories

as
>> proof of date of possession as much as the old trick of mailing a

document
>> to yourself through the USPS. But, in the former case there would be no

way
>> to "tamper with the envelop", unless you conspired with the ISP, so it

would
>> be superior to the latter. It is a rediculous cludge, but technically,

the
>> server's logged file transfer date and time would probably stand in

court.
>> Now, the practicality of archiving all your work in such a manner is

pretty
>> much absurd.
>>
>> "zuuum" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:...
>>
>>>His logged post of the image on the server will prove it's date of

origin,
>>>even more than any embedded file info
>>>
>>>Duh!
>>>
>>>
>>>"TenKMan" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>
>>>>Why is top posting a problem?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Alan Browne" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>>news:fDkKb.89855$(E-Mail Removed). net...
>>>>
>>>>>Techno Aussie wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>You're kidding, right?
>>>>>>Would you actually do that sort of thing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Alan Browne" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:zm_Jb.25777$(E-Mail Removed). net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>. For example,
>>>>>>>if I rip off an image from Bret Douglas, like the full detail hawk
>>>>>>
>>>>image
>>>>
>>>>>>>he posted recently on pbase, I could use a binary editor to change
>>>>>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>>>date and whatever other little details may please me and then claim
>>>>>>
>>>>it
>>>>
>>>>>>>as my own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>First off, please stop top posting.
>>>>>
>>>>>Secondly, if you don't recognize it as an "example" as opposed to
>>>>>intent, then any other discussion is moot.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
>>>>>

>
>
>Sorry, the word or file date or whatever from any ISP
>is going to be worth less than a grain of salt in any
>court.
>
>On the other hand, the weight of a hand cancelled
>postmark from any post office - Canada Post, the USPS,
>the Royal Mail, etc will be overwhelming.
>
>Take care.
>
>Ken


 
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Paul Rubin
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-07-2004
Thinking about it some more, I don't believe any of this proof stuff
is relevant. Once you get to a court, ownership of the photo is
unlikely to be seriously disputed. The problem is getting to court in
the first place.

Digimarc doesn't provide solid proof of anything in court, and their
marketeers are exaggerating if they say it can. However, its purpose
is something different. Apparently part of Digimarc's business is
running a big web spider that slurps images from all over the web,
looking for Digimarc watermarks. When it finds them, it matches them
up with the owners' sites and so in that way, it finds where the
infringers are. It's then up to the rights owner to pursue further
enforcement.
 
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