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Fast DSLR?

 
 
Howard McCollister
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      12-26-2003

"Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Howard McCollister wrote:
>
> > Yes, the Nikon 70-200VR blows away the Canon 28-135 for sports

photography.
>
> Well, you are comparing a consumer line lens (canon=$400)
> with a pro lens (nikon=$1600). Compare to a canon pro lens,
> the 70-200 IS ($1600) and your results would be different.


Yes, I know that, but the OP was asking about about sports lenses. I said
the Nikon 24-120VR was the 28-135 equivalent, but that the 70-200VR would be
superior to either of the two. So would Canon's 70-200, I certainly agree.
While pro sports photographers would certainly go for something longer, the
price of those lenses and their special purpose function makes them far less
suitable for amateur photographers who are looking for something with a
little broader applicability at a more reasonable price. Seems to me that
the 70-200 (either brand) has to be up toward the upper limits of the
amateur market.


> > Pros switching? That's a marketing coup, not an engineering triumph.

>
> That is quite a slap in the face of many very smart pros. The switch

going
> on is mainly due to canon's lens selection.


I think it's valid to say that lens selection is a major part of marketing.
It doesn't have anything to do with engineering. Nikon is a great optical
engineering company. The fact that Nikon's 500-600mm pro lenses aren't
stabilized (yet) certainly doesn't mean they CAN'T, it just means they
haven't. Who knows why? Maybe they think that small market isn't worth the
resource expenditure.

I certainly don't dispute that Canon has outmarketed Nikon, but to argue
that USM / IS is superior to AF-S / VR as an engineering feat only gets us
back to the original argument. Marketing is Canon's strong suit. A good
product with superior marketing will get the biggest market share, and it
has. That's their plan, and it certainly has worked. At the "prosumer" level
I suspect that the success of the 10D has mostly to do with Canon's
industry-leading aggressive pricing relative to the D100. And the superior
margins they provide to dealers encourages those dealers to sell Canon over
Nikon. Clever marketing. And professional photographers are certainly not
immune to marketing. The pro switch from Canon to Nikon that you assert,
assuming it's true, is a marketing triumph. I've not seen any data on that,
and you didn't provide any, but I've heard that same anecdotal statement as
recently as last week at a big camera store, where they told me that pros
that shop there were about 5:1 Canon these days. If I were the VP marketing
at Canon and wanted to capture the sports and wildlife pro market, I'd get
my boys working on 500-600mm stabilized lenses, because I know that money is
of less concern to a professional photographer who simply HAS to get that
shot. Smart marketing if you want that limited segment of the market. From
my perspective, I view those long lenses as a little irrelevant in the same
way that Chevrolet's performance on the NASCAR circuit is irrelevant to the
truck that I drive to the grocery store. But, maybe bragging rights does
filter down to the consumer. Canon's marketing people would know that better
than I would. And if they want the 10D to outsell the D100 and can't prove
that it's any better than equal to the D100 from a performance standpoint,
then the way to get the edge is to drop the price.

Canon certainly hasn't made many mistakes in the last couple of years, ever
since Nikon trumped them with the D1; they came back with a vengeance and
show no signs of stopping anytime soon. If I were going to buy stock in a
photography company, it would certainly be Canon, not Nikon. OTOH, if I were
going to buy a camera and didn't need a $7200 image stabilized lens system,
I would (and did) look at it differently.

HMc






 
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George Preddy
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      12-26-2003

"Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> George Preddy wrote:
>
> > DSLRs are faster for lots of reasons, see below, and they have little to

no
> > perceivable shutterlag. Here is the rundown...
> >
> > Shutter lag in secs...
> > ------------------
> > 1Ds - .059
> > D100 - .100
> > 10D - .104
> > SD10 - .110
> > 14n - .119
> > SD9 - .140
> > 300D - .142
> > S2 Pro - .162

>
> George, where did you find these numbers. In my searching,
> I could find one number on one site, then another on another
> site, but test conditions were not necessarily the same.


www.imaging-resource.com


 
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Michael Schnell
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      12-26-2003
The Nikon D2H seems to be by far the fastest in the market (it's especially
constructed for speed and thus only has 4MPix instead of 6 like most DSLRs),
but it's some $3000.

-Michael




 
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Gavin Cato
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      12-26-2003

"Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
message news:(E-Mail Removed)...

>
> Bull*crap This is the same thread of one user ranting with no data in

another
> post in this thread. George has posted data that essentially shows the
> two cameras pretty equal. Each wins in one area then the other wins
> in another. And in the end pretty much equal.


That user is not making it up. I have the same sentiments after using both
as well.

You just need to use the 2 cameras side by side to realise it, it's
incredibly obvious when you have the cameras in your hands.

The 10D does have a larger buffer which is great, but the D100 is most
certainly snappier to use.

btw regarding the sport lenses, VR/IS is more needed in wildlife than in
sports. In sports you want high shutter speeds so the nikon big prime lenses
are perfectly fine.

Gav








 
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George Preddy
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      12-27-2003

"George Preddy" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:bshu7f$fj0$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote

in
> message news:(E-Mail Removed)...


> > > Shutter lag in secs...
> > > ------------------
> > > 1Ds - .059
> > > D100 - .100
> > > 10D - .104
> > > SD10 - .110
> > > 14n - .119
> > > SD9 - .140
> > > 300D - .142
> > > S2 Pro - .162

> >
> > George, where did you find these numbers. In my searching,
> > I could find one number on one site, then another on another
> > site, but test conditions were not necessarily the same.

>
> www.imaging-resource.com


I'd also add that the 10D vs 300D data, and SD9 vs SD10 data, more or less
proves there is no statistical significance at all to that rank order --
test margin of error and/or variance between models seems to be the dominant
influence. Bottom line, there is probably more of a difference from one
camera sample to the next, as there is from one model to the next.


 
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Bill Hilton
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-27-2003
>>> Pros switching? That's a marketing coup, not an engineering triumph.

>>"Roger N. Clark
>>
>> That is quite a slap in the face of many very smart pros. The
>> switch going on is mainly due to canon's lens selection.



>From: "Howard McCollister" http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
>
>The pro switch from Canon to Nikon that you assert,
>assuming it's true, is a marketing triumph. I've not seen any data on that,
>and you didn't provide any, but I've heard that same anecdotal statement as
>recently as last week at a big camera store, where they told me that pros
>that shop there were about 5:1 Canon these days.


I do a fair bit of wildlife and nature photography. In the past 10 years or so
several big name and mid-level pros in this field have switched from Nikon to
Canon. I've never heard of a big-name guy switching from Canon to Nikon during
the same period, though wouldn't surprise me to learn a few have. Switching
from a system you've used for 20-30 years is not an easy choice and it's
surprising you'd claim it was done because of marketing.

Since you mention data, here are the names of a handful of ex-Nikon users and
the reasons why they switched. I think Roger Clark is right-on, they are
switching mainly because of the IS lenses, plus a few other reasons (read the
links to see more).

Art Wolfe -- switched a few years back when his Nikon gear was stolen, or so I
heard.

Leonard Lee Rue (Jr. and Sr.) -- I know the Rues moderately well, have shot
beside them in Alaska and Yellowstone. I asked Len Jr. why they switched and
he said Nikon was too slow to bring out new gear, he switched several years ago
when he wanted a 600 f/4 and Nikon didn't have one.

Erwin (Joe) & Peggy Bauer -- long time Nikon users (many decades), last seen
shooting Canon 600 f/4 IS lenses at Ding Darling NWR in Florida. Didn't ask
him why they switched.

These are the three biggest names I'm aware of. Here are a few mid-level
guys/gals, generally younger than Rue and Bauer (both in their 80's now) and
Wolfe.

Joe and Mary Ann McDonald -- you can read lengthy their well-reasoned reasons
for switching here ... http://www.birdsasart.com/b35.html (doesn't sound like
they're doing it because of marketing hype, Howard).

Ralph Lee Hopkins -- Ralph is a photo expledition leader for Lindblad and
shoots a lot from ships in places like Galapagos Islands, Svalbard for polar
bears, Antarctica, Baja, Alaska's Inside Passage (has an article on this in the
latest "Outdoor Photographer"). He shot Nikons for 25 years but switched to
Canon because the IS lenses are so handy for shooting from boats. He tried the
80-400VR but said it focussed too slowly and wasn't sharp enough for his needs
wide open ... I loaned him my 100-400 IS for a trip to Svalbard and when he got
back he sold the Nikons and now has several IS lenses.

Tom Vezo is a well-known bird photographer, maybe one of the top 3 or so ...
another long-time Nikon user (30 years). When the Canon long lenses came out
with IS he is quoted as saying "You don't need this if you shoot on a tripod
with perfect technique". Recently he made the switch, selling off his Nikon
600 f/4 and 300 f/2.8 and F5 bodies and buying Canon IS gear (600 f/4, 500 f/4,
300 f/2. to replace it. The main reason he gave was better AF, which was a
bit of a surprise to me ... read about it here, scroll down to " well knock me
over with a feather" ... http://www.birdsasart.com/bn114.htm

I know of several others in roughly this same level who have switched from
Nikon to Canon. Can you name half a dozen pros with reputations similar to the
ones above who've switched from Canon to Nikon the past few years? I doubt it.

I realize many of the best guys in the field still shoot Nikons (Tom Mangelsen,
Frans Lanting, Jim Brandenberg, John Shaw to name a few) and once/if Nikon gets
VR in their longest telephotos the bleeding may stop, but right now and for the
past 10 years the momentum has been flowing Canon's way.

More recently Canon seems ahead with digital SLR's .... the Nikon D100 is
pretty much equivalent to the 10D but Nikon has nothing to compete with the
entry-level 300D in price, and for a couple of years the 1D was the favored
body for newspaper and magazine guys shooting sports etc (Nikon recently caught
up with a new model, but 2 years is a bit late). And for full-frame dSLR's the
Canon 1DS is much better than what Nikon/Kodak has to offer in the 14n.

It's not just marketing hype ... Canon is developing excellent products and a
lot of people are buying them.

Bill


 
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George Preddy
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-27-2003
I stand corrected. It seems any DSLR with a Nikon F80 based body is
incapable of shoot priority. This, for me, would certainly rule out the S2
Pro, 14n, and also the Pentax *ist cannot do it. I never tested this when
I've used the D100, but I'd be interested in confirmation from thse who have
one. The Canons do work, but the 10D "family" is slow in most important
areas of electronic operation .

Regardless of exactly how important this is to you, it is certainly worth
strong consideration.


"George Preddy" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:...
> DSLRs are faster for lots of reasons, see below, and they have little to

no
> perceivable shutterlag. Here is the rundown...
>
> Shutter lag in secs...
> ------------------
> 1Ds - .059
> D100 - .100
> 10D - .104
> SD10 - .110
> 14n - .119
> SD9 - .140
> 300D - .142
> S2 Pro - .162
>
> Most fall within 4/100ths of a second. If you are after shooting speed,

the
> main difference from your 707 will be recycle times, continuous drive

modes,
> and body operation. The affordable DSLRs' continuous modes break down

like
> this...
>
> 6MP continuous drive
> ----------------------
> 10D = 3 fps for 9 frames
> D100 =3 fps for 3 frames in RAW (or for 6 frames but JPEG only)
> S2 Pro = 2 fps for 7 frames
> SD10 = 2.5 fps for 40 frames
> SD10 at 10.3MP = 2 fps for 7 frames
>
> And unlike prosumers, you can continuously shoot 1 to replace 1, as the
> buffer writes out to the flash card.
>
> Also unlike prosumers, the flash won't limit recycle time. But a cheap
> flash won't be able to fire fast enough to keep up with the continuous

drive
> modes either, so it might sporatically miss frames. Using my SD9, the

flash
> keeps up in continous mode with strong batteries as long as you don't
> exposure compensate the flash itself to too high a power.
>
> Body operating speed is another major difference. Whereas the 707

requires
> 6 (all different) switch actions and several seconds to get into a proper
> mode to then delete a shot, then another couple of seconds to switch back
> into a shooting mode, a DSLR doesn't need to switch modes. The SD9 will
> delete a shot as fast as you can hit the "delete" button and the "ok"

button
> using both thumbs at the same time--so like no time is required--and the
> camera will shoot through even that operation if need be.
>
> Playback and image examination times and abilities vary among DSLRs, the
> Canons seem very slow to me, but I'm used to the Sigma which doesn't have
> any delays during navigation or when changing shots, but it does take

about
> a half second to pop into full resolution detail after you settle on some
> panned/magnified image area. It's also nice that if you snap a new

picture
> during image review, after the new image preview time expires (if any is
> selected), it comes right back to where you were.
>
> It's a real pleasure to use any DSLR over a any prosumer.
>
>
>



 
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Howard McCollister
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-27-2003

"Bill Hilton" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> >>> Pros switching? That's a marketing coup, not an engineering triumph.

>
> >>"Roger N. Clark
> >>
> >> That is quite a slap in the face of many very smart pros. The
> >> switch going on is mainly due to canon's lens selection.

>
>
> >From: "Howard McCollister" (E-Mail Removed)
> >
> >The pro switch from Canon to Nikon that you assert,
> >assuming it's true, is a marketing triumph. I've not seen any data on

that,
> >and you didn't provide any, but I've heard that same anecdotal statement

as
> >recently as last week at a big camera store, where they told me that pros
> >that shop there were about 5:1 Canon these days.

>
> I do a fair bit of wildlife and nature photography. In the past 10 years

or so
> several big name and mid-level pros in this field have switched from Nikon

to
> Canon. I've never heard of a big-name guy switching from Canon to Nikon

during
> the same period, though wouldn't surprise me to learn a few have.

Switching
> from a system you've used for 20-30 years is not an easy choice and it's
> surprising you'd claim it was done because of marketing.


(bunch of pointless name dropping snipped...)

> More recently Canon seems ahead with digital SLR's .... the Nikon D100 is
> pretty much equivalent to the 10D but Nikon has nothing to compete with

the
> entry-level 300D in price, and for a couple of years the 1D was the

favored
> body for newspaper and magazine guys shooting sports etc (Nikon recently

caught
> up with a new model, but 2 years is a bit late). And for full-frame

dSLR's the
> Canon 1DS is much better than what Nikon/Kodak has to offer in the 14n.
>
> It's not just marketing hype ... Canon is developing excellent products

and a
> lot of people are buying them.
>



You guys think I'm talking about Canon getting some advertising company to
come up with TV and print ads to try to sell an unsuspecting public (pro and
consumer) an overhyped bill of goods. That's not it. Read my post more
closely.

I don't dispute that many pros are switching from Nikon to Canon. I
*believe* that they are. If I could justify a 1Ds, I'd switch too. Otherwise
I'll stay with Nikon / Fuji since Nikon's lens lineup in the categories I
need are as good as Canon's and Canon doesn't have, and is unlikely to have,
a killer dSLR that will significantly exceed the equivalent Nikon-based dSLR
in the performance/price category I need/want. If I were a pro, I certainly
wouldn't dump my D2H for a 1D (or the upcoming 1D replacement) just for the
body. But if I were a pro, and REALLY needed image stabilization on a
500-600mm lens (for example), I think that would be a very good reason to
switch my whole kit.

Get it? Canon's marketing plan in developing such a broad lens lineup has
served them very well. Never mind that a lot of it is consumer-level crap
(just like Nikon), but if someone is starting from scratch in dSLR, they
would have to be impressed with such a broad selection of lenses; something
for everybody there. And if it's a professional photographer, that same
marketing plan (broad lens lineup) promises to give them more flexibility
than Nikon can. Canon isn't better, but it is about equivalent, and there is
more of it.

When I speak of marketing, I'm not talking about just advertising; that's a
very small part of marketing. I don't for a minute envision a professional
photographer mesmerized in front of a Canon print ad or TV commercial
thinking "I gotta get me one of those...". I'm talking about *all* the
things that make people buy Canon equipment, and the extensive lineup of
technologically competent equipment is the biggest part. The next biggest
part is pricing, and Canon has been very aggressive in that aspect of
marketing too. Again, it has served them well. They deserve to be where they
are, and Nikon deserves to be where they are. It's not engineering, it's
marketing. Superior marketing will always win the day as long as the
engineering is competent. Put away your Canon bias for a moment and I think
you'll see that I am right.

We all benefit in the long run. Isn't capitalism great?

HMc



 
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Gavin Cato
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-27-2003
huh? what is "shoot priority"?



"George Preddy" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:bsklmk$iul$(E-Mail Removed)...
> I stand corrected. It seems any DSLR with a Nikon F80 based body is
> incapable of shoot priority. This, for me, would certainly rule out the

S2
> Pro, 14n, and also the Pentax *ist cannot do it. I never tested this when
> I've used the D100, but I'd be interested in confirmation from thse who

have
> one. The Canons do work, but the 10D "family" is slow in most important
> areas of electronic operation .
>
> Regardless of exactly how important this is to you, it is certainly worth
> strong consideration.
>
>
> "George Preddy" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:...
> > DSLRs are faster for lots of reasons, see below, and they have little to

> no
> > perceivable shutterlag. Here is the rundown...
> >
> > Shutter lag in secs...
> > ------------------
> > 1Ds - .059
> > D100 - .100
> > 10D - .104
> > SD10 - .110
> > 14n - .119
> > SD9 - .140
> > 300D - .142
> > S2 Pro - .162
> >
> > Most fall within 4/100ths of a second. If you are after shooting speed,

> the
> > main difference from your 707 will be recycle times, continuous drive

> modes,
> > and body operation. The affordable DSLRs' continuous modes break down

> like
> > this...
> >
> > 6MP continuous drive
> > ----------------------
> > 10D = 3 fps for 9 frames
> > D100 =3 fps for 3 frames in RAW (or for 6 frames but JPEG only)
> > S2 Pro = 2 fps for 7 frames
> > SD10 = 2.5 fps for 40 frames
> > SD10 at 10.3MP = 2 fps for 7 frames
> >
> > And unlike prosumers, you can continuously shoot 1 to replace 1, as the
> > buffer writes out to the flash card.
> >
> > Also unlike prosumers, the flash won't limit recycle time. But a cheap
> > flash won't be able to fire fast enough to keep up with the continuous

> drive
> > modes either, so it might sporatically miss frames. Using my SD9, the

> flash
> > keeps up in continous mode with strong batteries as long as you don't
> > exposure compensate the flash itself to too high a power.
> >
> > Body operating speed is another major difference. Whereas the 707

> requires
> > 6 (all different) switch actions and several seconds to get into a

proper
> > mode to then delete a shot, then another couple of seconds to switch

back
> > into a shooting mode, a DSLR doesn't need to switch modes. The SD9 will
> > delete a shot as fast as you can hit the "delete" button and the "ok"

> button
> > using both thumbs at the same time--so like no time is required--and the
> > camera will shoot through even that operation if need be.
> >
> > Playback and image examination times and abilities vary among DSLRs, the
> > Canons seem very slow to me, but I'm used to the Sigma which doesn't

have
> > any delays during navigation or when changing shots, but it does take

> about
> > a half second to pop into full resolution detail after you settle on

some
> > panned/magnified image area. It's also nice that if you snap a new

> picture
> > during image review, after the new image preview time expires (if any is
> > selected), it comes right back to where you were.
> >
> > It's a real pleasure to use any DSLR over a any prosumer.
> >
> >
> >

>
>



 
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Antti Heiskanen
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-27-2003
(E-Mail Removed)dy (Bill Hilton) wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
> More recently Canon seems ahead with digital SLR's .... the Nikon D100 is
> pretty much equivalent to the 10D but Nikon has nothing to compete with the
> entry-level 300D in price, and for a couple of years the 1D was the favored
> body for newspaper and magazine guys shooting sports etc (Nikon recently
> caught up with a new model, but 2 years is a bit late). And for
> full-frame dSLR's the Canon 1DS is much better than what Nikon/Kodak has
> to offer in the 14n.


As you and others have already pointed out, available lens selection
is surely the deciding factor for most of the pro's. Camera bodies
come and go, and what is today considered the best available
technology, can literally tomorrow be superseded by a new solution
from the competing brand. As the lenses have a very stong lock-in
effect to the brand, you need to have a very compelling reason for
switching brands - and for most of us a single new camera body is not
such a reason.

When we were all shooting film, lenses and films made the difference
in (technical) picture quality: e.g. Nikon F and F5 vere able to
produce same image quality. Today camera body has replaced the role of
film and therefore the make, model, age, and even firmware version of
the body are factors affecting the image quality (among others). The
camera company that has the biggest profit margins and biggest market
share has more money to invest in R&D, and with good decisions and
some luck, they are probably able to make their market share even
bigger. So when you are choosing a camera brand and making a long-time
investment in it, you could also see how the pontential brands are
doing on the market. For some time Canon has been winning the
Canon/Nikon battle on all fronts, or market segments. That is a factor
that should be affecting your purchase decision. See e.g.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/stats.asp for most popular brands &
models (out of 10 most popular models 7 are Canons, 2 Sonys and 1
Fuji). The results are only from the last 5 days, but regarding the
brands the situation has stayed the same for a long time.

Also recent news from the Nikon camp have been somewhat discouraging:
- Nikon D2h is indeed a very nice product, but roughly comparable to
Canon 1D that was introduced already 2 years, or 8 internet/technology
years, ago.
- D70 is doing almost as badly, as 300D has been selling for a long by
the time D70 will be available and reaches volume shipments.
- Nikon still has nothing to combat the 1Ds.
- Most Canon low-end digicams beat their Nikon counterparts, and there
are more Canon models to choose from.

Then there are some interesting rumors:
- Rumor says Nikon may be planning to outsource production of its
low-end digicams to Taiwan, which does not sound very good indicator
to me.
- Rumor says Nikon F6 will have switchable film and digital backs,
which sounds incredibly stupid R&D decision to me. Designing a body
that has functionality for both film and digital backs will surely
involve too many many compromises - and there are very few occasions
where I would choose film over 11-15MP digital. So why bother with a
film back at all? Even if the main purpose of switchable backs was to
allow the use of fast digital back and full resolution back (as D2h
and "D2x"), the idea does not make too much sense.

-Antti
 
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