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No one speaks english anymore??

 
 
Sloopy
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      12-24-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Noel <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:28:04 -0800, Sloopy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> >They never got their act together enough to have an actual civilization.

>
> What they had was far more a civilisation than anything your ilk could
> ever aspire to.


Tee-hee. Oh, yes, tell me about how well they did with the basics, such
as a written language.

Sorry, but the people Columbus and he rest found were, for the most
part, closer to cavemen than modern man, developmentally. That's why the
poor sods were such easy pickings.

-Sloopy
 
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Steve Young
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      12-24-2003
> "Tony Spadaro" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
> Start by crawling into a hole and pulling the rest of the dirt in with you.


Looks like you're in the holiday spirit Tony
(as I noticed none of your usual foul language




 
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Larry Lynch
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      12-24-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) says...
> Sorry, but the people Columbus and he rest found were, for the most
> part, closer to cavemen than modern man, developmentally. That's why the
> poor sods were such easy pickings.
>
> -Sloopy
>


They were easy-pickings because the very idea of telling
a lie was an anathma to them. They couldn't concieve any
scenario where godlike powerful men could, or would
decieve them in order to take away thier land. (Native
Americans, for the most part, did not understand the
concept of "Ownership" of something as sacred as the
land)

--
Larry Lynch
Lasting Imagery
Mystic, Ct.
 
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Zbgenew Ostazuski
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      12-24-2003
Michael wrote:
>
> Ok, since a lot of people abroad from America probably read this group I'm
> going to post it here and hopefully get some good feedback. I was born and
> raised on the East Coast of the US. I grew up in not so nice neighborhoods
> so I have some street smarts and I'm aware of what's going on out there. I
> am not a prejudice person. I've worked since I was legally able to and the
> feds have been sucking taxes out of me ever since. I currently live in
> Central NJ, where it's busy and crowded. I've realized that most stores,
> fast food establishments, gas stations, service companies, anything that's
> retail the people that work there do not speak much English. Today I was
> shopping and tried to ask some questions about a product that was being
> sold. The sales associate had a very strong accent and I couldn't understand
> him. He actually got upset with me because I couldn't understand what he was
> saying. Another sales associate came over which had an accent himself, but
> not as strong as the first guy. The second gentlemen was hard to understand
> also. For some reason these two guys got arrogant with me because I couldn't
> understand them! I believe it was a Spanish accent. I indicated to them that
> I wanted to speak to an English speaking sales associate and they got
> offended and tried to play it off that I was prejudice and didn't like
> Hispanics. My god, all I wanted was some questions answered about a product.
> To my disbelief the store supervisor was understandable, but also had a
> heavy accent. Let me ask...is it appropriate for people that do not speak
> the English language correctly to insult or be arrogant to some one that
> does in an English speaking country? Last time I checked when I saw the
> President on TV he was speaking English with no accent. I want to know why
> in the hell would these Hispanic employees get mad at me because I don't
> understand them? Do they think I'm going to actually learn their language or
> feel ashamed that I didn't understand them? I would think they would be
> ashamed because they can't speak the English language correctly, buy lemme
> tell you...they have no shame whatsoever. This is just one small incident
> that happens to me on a daily basis. I refuse to buy fast food at
> drive-throughs anymore. If you don't speak Spanish, you'll never get what
> you want. When you purchase gasoline (in NJ you can't pump yourself) you
> have to tell the attendant 5 times what you want and speak like you are
> talking to a 5 year old. I think I'm getting a little frustrated nowadays
> that these companies don't care if their employees don't even speak the
> language correctly as long as they take the cheapest salary I guess. If I
> were to move to another country I would certainly learn and be fluent in
> that language and make sure I was ashamed if I couldn't speak it correctly.
> I have no sympathy or feelings for these type (not all of them) of people
> anymore that don't care.

Whadddya' talk?
 
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zbzbzb
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      12-24-2003
>
>I am (an arrogant bastard) but I don't bare my teeth, or bite, too often -
>only on occasions reserved usually for culturally deprived Americans. LOL


You sound like a French snob instead of a Brit.


 
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Frank van der Pol
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      12-24-2003
zbzbzb schreef in bericht
<(E-Mail Removed)>:

> Nope I understood it just fine. Did you notice that I didn't call into question
> the Danish education system, assuming that is where you are from?


Should I now question your presence during your lessons geography at
highschool or is it your eyesight that prevents you from reading
message headers and determine that .nl is not the same as .dk ?

Frank
 
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Frank van der Pol
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      12-24-2003
zbzbzb schreef in bericht
<(E-Mail Removed)>:


> Venting?


No. Just trying to make clear that your Dutch reading is not half as
good as my English writing and thus that it is quite cheap and easy to
criticize someone on his use of English when it is not his native
language.

> Again, you misunderstood the whole point of his message.


Yeah, right. When you disagree with someone, you are missing the
point. The point was that he basically thinks that Americans are
people who speak the language in a way he is able to understand.

> It is paranoid.


You are a psychiatrist?

> You are getting defensive over someones remarks when they
> obviously had no intention on offending anyone.


Ah, we are talking about intentions here? And you ask me to understand
his intentions? How about you understanding my intentions when I was
talking about his education?

> "Twisted mind" because he posted something off topic? That's quite a bit of a
> stretch.


It 's not a message that is simply off topic. It is much more than
that. Personally I think it is almost a political issue.

> So then it makes sense to come out and ask whether in the US they teach proper
> English? Please.


You are repeating yourself. Even parrots are smarter. At least they
repeat what others say.

> If you are going to speak in someone elses language you should at least learn
> how to do it without being insulting.


You seem to repeat yourself again. Besides. The moment you more or
less force others to use your language for communication, it is
essentially no longer your language. Language is not something you
own. And it certainly is not something that is used only in the way
you think is correct.

> Anyway, I still think that was your
> intention in the first place.


Don't try to think about what my intentions are. Actually I think you
shouldn't try to think too much at all since your brains might get
overheated.

> What does the quality of American education have to do with your great
> irritation over him not writing the way you want him too?


That he probably threw away a part of the education he was offered
because he was asleep when the lessons on using paragraphs started.

> Is that what you
> normally do when you can't understand someones writing , you question the
> eduaction system of his or her country?


There is a big difference between the meaning of words, their syntax
and the semantics of a sentence. You seem to lack the capacity to
notice the difference between them.

> His intended audience obviously had no problem understanding.


As I said earlier, the problem was not so much in the understanding
it, but in reading it. That is what paragraphs are for and that is
what my remark was about.

> The value of the content of any text is its meaning, period. When you agree
> with something it doesn't require a but.


It does, since one can often gauge the value of the content by looking
at the effort that is put into writing the text.

> >I am quite sure though that your Dutch and probably even your French
> >is probably of a level that would make a toddler look imbarrassed.

>
>
> And I am supposed to be concerned with that in what way?


Not concerned. But I personally would hope that because someone
somewhere told others that English would be the preferred (but in
practice more or less imposed) language to communicatie, you (and the
OP for that matter) would not judge others on using this language
incorrectly. Do not judge, and you will not be judged.

You probably would do not much better in a similar situation. And many
English speaking people actually do much worse, since they very
seldomly learn to speak the language of the country they live in
fluently within a period of ten or fifteen years.

There are exceptions though, like Paul Bremer III who speaks Dutch,
but mainly because of the Dutch descent of his forefathers.

> >> They may have been a pile of words to you but they were obviously

> >understood by
> >> all except you.

> >
> >Who are you to speak on behalf of "all".

>
>
> I don't speak for all but am merely pointing out that fact considering the
> responses he had received.


Nevertheless you said the words were understood by all. When you agree
you agree with that it doesn't require a but. I assume this doesn't
only apply to me?

> What you asked him was insulting. Would you like me to quote what you said?


To be honest, what he wrote was rather insulting too. But he wouldn't
know, because he speaks his English fluently and flawlessly of course.

> Sounds like he was talking to Americans to me.


And that means he coudn't be insulting? Please define 'Americans'. In
my opinion Americans don't exist. In much the same way as Europeans
don't exist. Just as Dutch people don't exist.

Is an American someone who lives in the US and speaks English
fluently, flawlessly and without any recognizable accent?

Or is it someone who by coincidence was born in the US? Is it someone
who speaks Spanish and realized his own American dream? Or is it
someone waving a flag on the 4th of July? Is it a Christian, a Muslim?
And why not all?

Someone in this thread spoke about the melting pot and some other even
mentioned people behaving like lumps in it. Based on what the OP
writes I personally think there has never been something like a
melting pot in the US. It looks as if just like in many European
countries there has only been something like 'don't you dare to change
the flavour when you melt into our pot'.

Please forgive me, but in my country we are very well aware of the
'problem' the OP is writing about. There is nothing new to it and it
exists all over the world. I already read his story before he even
thought about writing it. And many others do. A Dutch politician was
assassinated this year because he rose (a) similar question(s).

> I'm not the one attacking someone for their writing skills because I can't
> understand him or her. You need to direct that question to yourself.


As I said a number of times now. It is not about understanding. It is
about presenting a text in a way that makes it readable for others.
This generally is done using paragraphs. It is a part of writing. And
I would expect him to use it just as he expects others to speak
English in a way he can understand.

> No, I think you need to learn what being polite means, especially if you choose
> to speak in other people's native tongue.


Just like the OP you also seem to welcome others into the melting pot
as long as they melt away in the pot filed with things that have your
flavour.

> And yet you were still interested enough to respond, correct?


An off topic post by a troll is always a good spark to start a flame.

> What kind of reasoning is that?


It has little to do with reasoning. It has to do with statistics.

> Take it from someone that speaks English as his native tongue, you were being
> insulting. It wasn't in a gray area either. Also, because others may not have
> responded does not make you right.


Sorry. I don't think I should lean on your reaction and opionion only.
If something is really insulting, I expect more than one nameless
person to react in order to believe that it really is insulting.

> Well you said you really didn't care. If you truely didn't you wouldn't be
> mentioning you didn't care in the first place.


Small children use similar arguements.

> Well apparently he didn't do it to your satisfaction.


Correct. Probably much like others didn't speak English in a way or on
a level that was satisfactory to him.

> Maybe you should get over
> it because I doubt very much he is going to rewrite it especially for you.


That is probably what the people in the shop thought about him not
understanding what they said to him.

> I think I know enough about my own culture


Which culture please? The Afro American culture? The Spanish American
Culture? The English Canadian, The American Indian, the American
European culture, or maybe some Arab American culture? How about the
culture of English speaking Australian people? The British or even the
Fiji culture? They all speak native English and they all have very
different cultures. I understand you are speaking for all of them when
you say they are offended by my remark?

> to say what would generally and
> obviously be offensive to fellow Americans. If you don't like that, well then
> that is your problem. Personally I would take that as helpful advice
> considering you are speaking my native language. Up to you.


Whe I would be in the US you could tell me I speak your language. In a
newsgroup I don't think I speak your language. I use an
internationally used language that happens to be your native language,
which is something entirely different.

English has been more or less grown to be used by anyone who wishes to
make himself heard internationally. But what you can and can not say
is determinded by other things than the use of the language itself.

English is not owned by Americans although you appear to think so. The
only thing that is owned by Americans is apparently (because only you
say so) the fact that certain constructions are felt to be offensive.
That is something I don't think is my problem.

> So if you know something so obviously elementary then why would you ask if not
> to insult or be sarcastic??


Hey... So you do seem to recognize something that is meant to be
sarcastic? Gee, it takes a long time for you to recognize a sacrastic
remark considering English is your native language...

> Since no one besides myself has responded on the issue then you can't make that
> determination now, can you?


Well, to be honest. I don't even count you in as a full vote
considering your discussions with others in this thread. Or even in
this group for that matter.

> "Asleep when he got his education?" Ok, then what does that have to do with "US
> education?"


Well, I more or less assumed he got his education in the US. He did
write: "I was born and raised on the East Coast of the US" didn't he?
I don't think it would have made sense to ask him if he slept during
his Moroccan education, would it?

> It was "badly written" for you because *you* had trouble understanding it.


No, it was hard to read because he didn't use paragraphs, just as the
people he was talking about were hard to understand because they had a
strong accent.

Besides. Have you noticed he wrote that he would hopefully get some
good feedback? Have you counted his messages after he sent his
original message? And you call me impolite?

Frank
 
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Noel
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      12-24-2003
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:52:47 -0800, Sloopy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:


>> What they had was far more a civilisation than anything your ilk could
>> ever aspire to.

>
>Tee-hee. Oh, yes, tell me about how well they did with the basics, such
>as a written language.


Their culture, like many others at that time, did not require a
written language to function. A written language is not a measure of
culture.

>Sorry, but the people Columbus and he rest found were, for the most
>part, closer to cavemen than modern man, developmentally. That's why the
>poor sods were such easy pickings.


This has to be the most stupid and ignorant thing I have ever seen
written about native North Americans.


 
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Paul Bartram
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      12-25-2003

"Paul Heslop" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote

> I have listened to how Indians/pakistanis speak since I was a kid and it

still sounds like a lot of letters thrown in the air and arranged into words
as they fell.

Whereas *Welsh* sounds like the letters have been eaten by grazing sheep
and.. uh.. you know...

Paul (Pom turned Aussie)


 
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zbzbzb
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      12-25-2003
>> Nope I understood it just fine. Did you notice that I didn't call into
>question
>> the Danish education system, assuming that is where you are from?

>
>Should I now question your presence during your lessons geography at
>highschool or is it your eyesight that prevents you from reading
>message headers and determine that .nl is not the same as .dk ?
>
>Frank
>



I am not in the least bit surprised you would point that out.








 
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