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While I have many years experience shooting 35mm SLR, this is going to be my
first digital camera. I've done a lot of reading, so I have a lot of theory
but very little practical experience. I can't afford a Sony DSC-F717, let
alone a Canon EOS 300D, but I want to be able to take as good a picture as
possible within my budget.

I have been looking at cameras in the low $300's, and the two best seem to
be the Canon A80 and the Minolta S414.

The advantages of the A80 include:

* Orientation sensor (none in S414)
* Shutter to 1/2000 (1/1000 in S414)
* Swivel 67K pixel LCD (fixed 122K pixel LCD in S414)
* 32MB CF Card (16MB in S414 - but both need bigger)
* f/2.8 wide (vs. f/3 wide in S414 - but A80 has
f/4.9 @ 114mm tele vs. S414 f/3.6 @ 140mm tele)
* AF assist lamp
* Smaller and lighter than S414
* Built in lens cover (tethered lens cover in S414)

While I don't plan to use it, the A80 can take a 320x240 movie for up
to 3 minutes, while the S414 has a 1 minute maximum.

The advantages of the S414 include:

* 35-140mm lens (vs. 38-114mm in A80)
* JPEG and TIFF formats (JPEG only in A80)
* 1.8" 122K pixel LCD w/ adjustable brightness
(1.5" 67K pixel swivel fixed brightness LCD in A80)
* Exposure bracketing (none in A80)
* Live histogram (playback only histogram in A80)
* Moderate barrel distortion @ full wide
(strong barrel distortion @ full wide in A80)
* Almost no pincushioning @ full tele
(some pincushioning @ full tele in A80)

(I only have one source for the barrel distortion/pincushioning stats, so
they may not be accurate.)

Additionally, the S414 includes additional picture adjustments that aren't
in the A80 that I doubt that I would use, preferring to do my fine tuning in
Photoshop Elements.

Some of my open questions include:

* How big a difference is the quality of the LCDs between the two?
Does the convenience of swiveling in the A80 make up for lower
resolution, smaller size and a lack of brightness adjustability?

* For those with A80's, how often do you swivel your LCD in
order to frame a shot, versus how often do you either use it
flat on the camera back or just use the optical viewfinder?

* How important is an AF assist lamp? A lot of cameras don't have
one. What is the practical lower limit that the S414 can focus
in? A dimly lit room? Outside at late twilight?

* How important is having TIFF format instead of only JPEG if I
plan to do post processing of my images?

* How useful is a live histogram? Is it something that you use
often, or do you tend to just let the AE take care of things
and just look at the picture & histogram after you've shot it?

* For those of you who have actually seen images from both, is there
a noticeable difference in image quality? (This is probably the
most important question on the list.)

Any and all comments are welcomed (including any other cameras in this price
range that you feel are better than these two).

Thank you for your assistance,

Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner

The Canon A80 has the 1/1,8" sensor chip that is doing wonderful work in the G2
and S400 too. Check http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/default.asp?view=alpha for
indepht reviews where this chip is mentioned in several reviews.

It isn't that simple - it takes more than a good sensor to make a good
camera. The lens is just as important, if not more so. Also, the
in-camera processing can ruin otherwise good photos if it's too
aggressive.

Some additional facts that I've dug up since my original post:

The A80 has user reported problems of red eye, purple fringing
(chromatic aberrations), a bit of vignetting and some low light focus
problems despite the AF assist lamp. Also, its 1.5" 67K LCD is not
sharp enough to use for accurate manual focusing, making manual focus a
bit of a guessing game. Also, the A80 seems to blow away (overexpose)
the sky under a number of not unusual exposure conditions.

On the other hand, the S414 often indicates that it has focus lock when
in fact it doesn't have a good focus.

In summary, it seems that the A80, while a more convenient camera in
terms of size and features, does not take as good a picture as the S414,
although you have to be careful to verify that you really get good focus
with the S414 (maybe use of focus lock with spot focus will help?).

In truth, the steady complaints from users of both models makes me wish
that I had a larger budget.

In article <Av2dnZpqeYHWZ32iRVn->,
says...
> It isn't that simple - it takes more than a good sensor to make a good
> camera. The lens is just as important, if not more so. Also, the
> in-camera processing can ruin otherwise good photos if it's too
> aggressive.
>
> Some additional facts that I've dug up since my original post:
>
> The A80 has user reported problems of red eye, purple fringing
> (chromatic aberrations), a bit of vignetting and some low light focus
> problems despite the AF assist lamp. Also, its 1.5" 67K LCD is not
> sharp enough to use for accurate manual focusing, making manual focus a
> bit of a guessing game. Also, the A80 seems to blow away (overexpose)
> the sky under a number of not unusual exposure conditions.
>
> On the other hand, the S414 often indicates that it has focus lock when
> in fact it doesn't have a good focus.
>
> In summary, it seems that the A80, while a more convenient camera in
> terms of size and features, does not take as good a picture as the S414,
> although you have to be careful to verify that you really get good focus
> with the S414 (maybe use of focus lock with spot focus will help?).
>
> In truth, the steady complaints from users of both models makes me wish
> that I had a larger budget.


You could probably find a new G2 on the web for $350 or $400. This
extra cash would buy you a faster/sharper lens, a hot shoe, and
several other advantages. The Olympus C-4000 is a decent camera too. They
are selling for about $350.

DD

"SLerner" <> wrote in message
news:Av2dnZpqeYHWZ32iRVn-...
> It isn't that simple - it takes more than a good sensor to make a good
> camera. The lens is just as important, if not more so. Also, the
> in-camera processing can ruin otherwise good photos if it's too
> aggressive.
>
> Some additional facts that I've dug up since my original post:
>
> The A80 has user reported problems of red eye, purple fringing
> (chromatic aberrations), a bit of vignetting and some low light focus
> problems despite the AF assist lamp. Also, its 1.5" 67K LCD is not
> sharp enough to use for accurate manual focusing, making manual focus a
> bit of a guessing game. Also, the A80 seems to blow away (overexpose)
> the sky under a number of not unusual exposure conditions.
>
> On the other hand, the S414 often indicates that it has focus lock when
> in fact it doesn't have a good focus.

I had that problem with some shots with my older S404, but I've only had one
out-of-focus shot with my S414. I've read the firmware has been improved
with the S414 model to correct or at least improve this problem, and that
does seem to be the case. With either model, when the shot is out of focus
it's usually BADLY out of focus, such that you can see it on the LCD and
reshoot.

Even with the S404, http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/minoltas404/ which wrote
up this occasional false focus lock (and illustrated one example in its
review) still give the camera their "Highly Recommended" rating. In the
out-of-focus example they show, a second shot taken immediately after the
the bad one was in perfect focus.


>
> In summary, it seems that the A80, while a more convenient camera in
> terms of size and features, does not take as good a picture as the S414,
> although you have to be careful to verify that you really get good focus
> with the S414 (maybe use of focus lock with spot focus will help?).

There's an S404/S414 forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DimageS404/
which has some posts about this. What seems to have solved the false focus
lock problem for some users is to use the M (multi-function) setting on the
control dial rather than Auto. Apparently it's the wide-area autofocus used
in the Auto setting which causes the problem, and selecting M instead uses
only the central focus point which doesn't have that problem. Using the M
setting also opens up various other user options, but the camera still
remains in full-auto mode as far as focus, exposure etc. are concerned
unless other changes are deliberately made. Many users PREFER limiting to
the central focus point anyway, as this allows the old familiar method of
selecting the subject to focus on, and locking focus there by pressing the
shutter release half way.

Also, the S404 and S414 allow manual focus, done in steps, 0.5m, 0.7m, 1m,
etc. (the increments vary according to focal length used, longer f.l.s using
smaller increments because of the reduced depth of field) which show in the
LCD. Although this is obviously less convenient than autofocus it does offer
an alternative, for those situations in which autofocus may be a problem.

Neil

Well, it seems that the focus problem of the S414 can be dealt with by
putting it in spot focus mode instead of leaving it in wide focus.

Any A80 users out there with feedback regarding their experience?

* Have you found the LCD resolution usable?
* Do you often use the LCD tilt feature?
* Have you found objectionable lens distortion?
* Have you had redeye problems?

So far, barring additional feedback, it seems that the list of problems
without any answers or work arounds for the A80 is long enough that I
will be going with the S414.

"SLerner" <> writes:
>Well, it seems that the focus problem of the S414 can be dealt with by
>putting it in spot focus mode instead of leaving it in wide focus.

That's generally good advice for any camera, if you want to be in
control of what's in focus. The A80 is the same: leave multi-zone focus
(AiAF) turned on when you give the camera to your grandmother, but turn
off AiAF and use P mode instead of Auto if you're shooting yourself.

>Any A80 users out there with feedback regarding their experience?

> * Have you found the LCD resolution usable?

It's usable for composing shots, and reading all of the setting
information that is displayed during shooting and playback. It's not
particularly usable for manual focus, even with the focus point
magnified. But the difference between a 1.5" (A80) and 1.8" LCD is not
going to make much difference in this. (My G2 has a 1.8" LCD)

> * Do you often use the LCD tilt feature?

All the time, in 2 ways. First, I keep the LCD folded facing the camera
with its back exposed when I'm not actually shooting, or if I'm using
the optical finder. This protects the LCD. Second, I often have the
camera either above or below eye level, and rotate the LCD for optimum
viewing from that position.

I hardly ever rotate the LCD around so it's visible from the front of
the camera; I don't take self-portraits like that. So, for me, a LCD
that simply allows some amount of tilt (e.g. the twist-body Nikons)
would be fine, but a LCD permanently fixed in the camera (e.g. S414)
would be definitely less useful. (I have used such a camera too).

> * Have you found objectionable lens distortion?

No. Like most P&S zooms, there is some, but I don't expect distortion-
free imaging from any wide-to-tele zoom.

> * Have you had redeye problems?

I haven't used it to shoot people with flash yet. I expect it will
produce redeye, like every camera that has the flash so close to the
lens.

>So far, barring additional feedback, it seems that the list of problems
>without any answers or work arounds for the A80 is long enough that I
>will be going with the S414.

The 414 looks like a nice camera too. But are you sure that it's better
than the A80 in the areas you are concerned with? It does have a longer
zoom, and a top-panel LCD that the A80 lacks. It displays a histogram
in record mode; the A80 does so in playback mode only. Those are
reasons I might choose it over the A80.

But the 414 is definitely going to produce redeye, like any camera of
this design. The LCD is fixed, and only slightly larger. The lens has
barrel distortion at wide angle, almost the same as the A70 (dpreview
hasn't done a full test of the A80, but I assume it's similar). The
macro close focus limit is 10 cm for the S414, 5 cm for the A80.
Judging by the S404 and A70 tests, the 414 and A80 will both produce
colour fringing around off-centr high-contrast edges. It looks like the
A70 fringing is brighter and blue in colour, while the 404 though dimmer
extends further beyond the edge, and changes colour from blue to purple
close to the edge.

Looking at the reviews, it isn't at all clear that either camera is
better than the other in actual performance.

Dave

"Dave Martindale" <> wrote in message
news:bsa3mc$nh5$...
> "SLerner" <> writes:
[ . . . ]
>
> > * Have you found objectionable lens distortion?
>
> No. Like most P&S zooms, there is some, but I don't expect distortion-
> free imaging from any wide-to-tele zoom.
>
> > * Have you had redeye problems?
>
> I haven't used it to shoot people with flash yet. I expect it will
> produce redeye, like every camera that has the flash so close to the
> lens.
>
> >So far, barring additional feedback, it seems that the list of problems
> >without any answers or work arounds for the A80 is long enough that I
> >will be going with the S414.
>
> The 414 looks like a nice camera too. But are you sure that it's better
> than the A80 in the areas you are concerned with? It does have a longer
> zoom, and a top-panel LCD that the A80 lacks. It displays a histogram
> in record mode; the A80 does so in playback mode only. Those are
> reasons I might choose it over the A80.
>
> But the 414 is definitely going to produce redeye, like any camera of
> this design.

Mine hasn't so far, but then I don't usually shoot people looking into the
lens with flash. I agree, any camera with the flash close to the lens axis
is likely to produce redeye, and the closer it is the more likely to produce
it.


The LCD is fixed, and only slightly larger. The lens has
> barrel distortion at wide angle, almost the same as the A70 (dpreview
> hasn't done a full test of the A80, but I assume it's similar).

Actually the S414 lens (same as S404) is remarkably distortion-free by any
standards. I don't think I've ever seen a test report of ANY zoom lens that
does not produce at least some barrel distortion at the short end. From the
S404 review at dpreview: "Very little barrel distortion at wide angle and no
measurable distortion at telephoto, an impressive performance for a compact
four times optical zoom lens. The 0.8% barrel distortion is below what we
would expect (around 1 - 1.1%). Kudos Minolta."

From the A70 review: "The A70's exhibited 0.9% (below average) barrel
distortion at wide angle but surprisingly also exhibited some (slight)
barrel distortion at telephoto (0.3%). While not unheard-of it is unusual to
see barrel distortion at the telephoto end of zoom, where we would expect
either some pincushion distortion or no distortion at all."

So yes, at the short end the S414 is only slightly better than the A70, but
at the long end the S414 has no distortion while the A70 still has some
barrel distortion, which is unusual.

Neil

[ . . . ]

Oops. I should have checked first before passing on that "fix."

On the S414 at least I find that is NOT true. The camera in M mode still
uses wide-area autofocus. There does not seem to be any difference between
that and Auto mode, which USUALLY uses the central focus area as well, or at
least that's what the LCD focus indicator indicates. I presume that's why
some user thought the M mode was restricting AF to the central area.

Nor does there seem to be any other way to limit the camera to the central
focusing area.

Neil



"NJH" <> wrote in message
news:y%ZFb.44130$. com...
>
[ . . . ]
>
> There's an S404/S414 forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DimageS404/
> which has some posts about this. What seems to have solved the false focus
> lock problem for some users is to use the M (multi-function) setting on
the
> control dial rather than Auto. Apparently it's the wide-area autofocus
used
> in the Auto setting which causes the problem, and selecting M instead uses
> only the central focus point which doesn't have that problem. Using the M
> setting also opens up various other user options, but the camera still
> remains in full-auto mode as far as focus, exposure etc. are concerned
> unless other changes are deliberately made. Many users PREFER limiting to
> the central focus point anyway, as this allows the old familiar method of
> selecting the subject to focus on, and locking focus there by pressing the
> shutter release half way.

"NJH" <> writes:

>> But the 414 is definitely going to produce redeye, like any camera of
>> this design.

>Mine hasn't so far, but then I don't usually shoot people looking into the
>lens with flash. I agree, any camera with the flash close to the lens axis
>is likely to produce redeye, and the closer it is the more likely to produce
>it.

Yes. Given the design of all these cameras, the main factor determining
whether redeye shows up is how dilated the pupils of the subject are,
and where they're looking when the flash fires.

>So yes, at the short end the S414 is only slightly better than the A70, but
>at the long end the S414 has no distortion while the A70 still has some
>barrel distortion, which is unusual.

So they both have some distortion, but both are lower than average.
They're very close, particularly at wide angle. This says to me

(a) if you don't like the 0.9% distortion of the Canon, you won't like
the 0.8% distortion of the Minolta, and what you really need is at
least a fixed focal length lens mand maybe even a macro lens, the only
type designed for near-zero distortion

(b) if you don't mind the Minolta's distortion, you probably won't mind
the Canon's either.

Either way, it's not something that distinguishes one camera from the
other. It makes more sense to choose based on substantial differences,
like a histogram visible before exposure or the swivel LCD.

Dave