«

Since I had to explain to my wife the large expenditure for a new digital
camera, I tried to allay her objections by pointing out that now we will be
able to preserve digital copies of her genealogical photographs.

But, she pointed out that her old black and white photographs would not fade
anyway because the silver in B/W photos cannot change, although the dies in
color photos would.

Do B/W photos fade with age if they are properly fixated?

--
Walter
The Happy Iconoclast www.rationality.net
-

Iconoclast asks:

>But, she pointed out that her old black and white photographs would not fade
>anyway because the silver in B/W photos cannot change, although the dies in
>color photos would.
>
>Do B/W photos fade with age if they are properly fixated?

Don't know where she got the idea that old b&w photos don't fade. I've got one
of me that has faded badly (over 60 years old) and a couple of my parents that
are even worse...those are close to 70 years old. I've also found that the b&w
junior prom photo I have has faded just about as badly as my color senior prom
photo.

All of these are just about the type of time line that might begin to be of
interest to genealogical tracers. Of course, anything that is correctly stored
lasts much longer. I ran across a 30+ year old 2-1/4 Ektachrome transparency of
me that is only lightly faded (and, if memory serves, it was almost that way
when it was first developed): it wasn't correctly stored, really, but it was in
a temperature controlled environment and out of the light, which seems to me to
be the biggest reason any photo fades.

Charlie Self

"In the final choice a soldier's pack is not so heavy as a prisoner's chains."
Dwight D. Eisenhower

--
x-no-archive: yes
"Iconoclast" <> wrote in message
newsm1Cb.9371$...
> Since I had to explain to my wife the large expenditure for a new digital
> camera, I tried to allay her objections by pointing out that now we will
be
> able to preserve digital copies of her genealogical photographs.
>
> But, she pointed out that her old black and white photographs would not
fade
> anyway because the silver in B/W photos cannot change, although the dies
in
> color photos would.
>
> Do B/W photos fade with age if they are properly fixated?
>
> --
> Walter
> The Happy Iconoclast www.rationality.net
> -

B&W negs and prints certainly have better archival qualities than do color
prints. That is not to say that digital copies aren's "as good." Digital
copies are "different."

1: DON'T even think of not preserving your original prints & negs. The
Kodak web site offers tips for proper storage for long-term use.

2: The value of digital copies is in the fact that they can be DUPLICATED
and stored in MULTIPLE LOCATIONS, for example: copies can be distributed to
family members or stored in safe deposit boxes.

This strategy minimizes the risk of loss due to fire, flood or theft. You
have only one set of original negatives, but you can clone your disks
multiple times. There is safety in that.

3: Another advantage of digital is that you can edit the images and correct
fading, brightness, contrast, remove scratches and other repairs, without
risking damaging the originals. There are numerous tutorials on the web
that offer tips and techniques.

4: Yet another advantage of digital: you can make reprints of some of those
priceless photos--after you've edited them and corrected them--and you can
make as many prints as you want, to be distributed among family members.
Where there was previously only a single album of original prints, there can
now be many copies of the family album out there!

I have gotten excellent results from OFOTO.COM. They make real photos, not
inkjet prints, from your digital files (they are owned by Kodak). The
beauty of scanning your originals and making corrected prints is that you
will end up with a better album than the one that held the originals, and
you can leave it out in the open for viewing, without worrying about harming
the originals.

I use digital cameras and digitally-edited prints extensively in my own
genealogy work. The advantages are overwhelming. Just remember that
digital archiving is not a substitute for preservation of the original
documents/photos. It is, rather an additional layer of conservation and
duplication. You store the originals and you work with--not the
originals--but the digital copies.

You will find your digital equipment to be much more versatile than a
film-based system would have been. You'll have loads of opportunities to
use it to its full advantage. Go ahead and exploit it to the max!

"Iconoclast" <> wrote in message
newsm1Cb.9371$...
> Since I had to explain to my wife the large expenditure for a new digital
> camera, I tried to allay her objections by pointing out that now we will
be
> able to preserve digital copies of her genealogical photographs.
>
> But, she pointed out that her old black and white photographs would not
fade
> anyway because the silver in B/W photos cannot change, although the dies
in
> color photos would.
>
> Do B/W photos fade with age if they are properly fixated?

B/W photos will last quite a long time IF...

1. They are printed on fiber-based paper

2. They are properly fixed, AND

3. The fixer (and all other chemicals) are very thoroughly washed from the
print

(and 4. The prints are stored at proper temperature/humidity and protected
from U/V light)

How long is quite a long time? 100 years or more.

Now if these black and white prints are done at your local
1-hr/send-away-and-pray photo lab, there's certainly no guarantee that any
of these conditions will be met, and I'll lay 10:1 odds that they don't
follow the first 3, since most print on RC paper, which doesn't really allow
all the chemicals to be washed out of the prints, even if you really tried.

Color prints and prints from inkjets do not have this sort of longevity,
although new advances in inkjet pigments and dyes are taking place all the
time. Marketing hype aside, we won't know what the true durability of
inkjet prints will be for decades or more.

As a side note, if you're trying to preserve digital copies of her
genealogical photographs, why are you buying a digital camera instead of a
digital scanner? A $100 (or less) scanner will provide much better digital
archives of prints than a camera on a copy stand would.

Good luck!

- jz

On 11 Dec 2003 17:49:37 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

>Iconoclast asks:
>
>>But, she pointed out that her old black and white photographs would not fade
>>anyway because the silver in B/W photos cannot change, although the dies in
>>color photos would.
>>
>>Do B/W photos fade with age if they are properly fixated?
>
>Don't know where she got the idea that old b&w photos don't fade. I've got one
>of me that has faded badly (over 60 years old) and a couple of my parents that
>are even worse...those are close to 70 years old. I've also found that the b&w
>junior prom photo I have has faded just about as badly as my color senior prom
>photo.
>
>All of these are just about the type of time line that might begin to be of
>interest to genealogical tracers. Of course, anything that is correctly stored
>lasts much longer. I ran across a 30+ year old 2-1/4 Ektachrome transparency of
>me that is only lightly faded (and, if memory serves, it was almost that way
>when it was first developed): it wasn't correctly stored, really, but it was in
>a temperature controlled environment and out of the light, which seems to me to
>be the biggest reason any photo fades.
>
>Charlie Self
>
Glancing back through over 50 year's worth of photos, both B&W and
color, it's clear that fading due to various causes is very much a
problem for film as it is often claimed to be for dye-based printers.
A better concern to have is what this all means in terms of your own
usage. Kept in an album, photos should last indefinitely unless
chemical reaction sets in (such as for inadequate washing of
conventional prints).

If you want absolutely permanent B&W prints, then consider a
pigment-based inkjet printer in conjunction with archival paper. The
black pigment used is generally of carbon composition, so should be
around for milleniums to come, or at least until the paper wears out.

Iconoclast wrote:

> Since I had to explain to my wife the large expenditure for a new digital
> camera, I tried to allay her objections by pointing out that now we will
> be able to preserve digital copies of her genealogical photographs.
>
> But, she pointed out that her old black and white photographs would not
> fade anyway because the silver in B/W photos cannot change, although the
> dies in color photos would.
>

She saw though your lame excuse. You'll have to come up with something
better and IMHO looks like she's smarter than you so it might be tough...

--

Stacey

While digital is theoretically able to be preserved forever, in 100 years
the prints will still be there in some condition but alas there is unlikely
to be any easy way to decode or extract the data from the digital storage
media. Even 15 years later how many computers are equipped to extract the
images stored on 5 1/4 floppy discs, the predominant digital storage media
of its time? Also consider that it is likely that the dyes in the CD-Rs
presumably used to store the images will have long turned to mush before the
prints fade out.

"Jeff Zawrotny" <> wrote in message
news:...
>
> "Iconoclast" <> wrote in message
> newsm1Cb.9371$...
> > Since I had to explain to my wife the large expenditure for a new
digital
> > camera, I tried to allay her objections by pointing out that now we will
> be
> > able to preserve digital copies of her genealogical photographs.
> >
> > But, she pointed out that her old black and white photographs would not
> fade
> > anyway because the silver in B/W photos cannot change, although the dies
> in
> > color photos would.
> >
> > Do B/W photos fade with age if they are properly fixated?
>
> B/W photos will last quite a long time IF...
>
> 1. They are printed on fiber-based paper
>
> 2. They are properly fixed, AND
>
> 3. The fixer (and all other chemicals) are very thoroughly washed from the
> print
>
> (and 4. The prints are stored at proper temperature/humidity and protected
> from U/V light)
>
> How long is quite a long time? 100 years or more.
>
> Now if these black and white prints are done at your local
> 1-hr/send-away-and-pray photo lab, there's certainly no guarantee that any
> of these conditions will be met, and I'll lay 10:1 odds that they don't
> follow the first 3, since most print on RC paper, which doesn't really
allow
> all the chemicals to be washed out of the prints, even if you really
tried.
>
> Color prints and prints from inkjets do not have this sort of longevity,
> although new advances in inkjet pigments and dyes are taking place all the
> time. Marketing hype aside, we won't know what the true durability of
> inkjet prints will be for decades or more.
>
> As a side note, if you're trying to preserve digital copies of her
> genealogical photographs, why are you buying a digital camera instead of a
> digital scanner? A $100 (or less) scanner will provide much better
digital
> archives of prints than a camera on a copy stand would.
>
> Good luck!
>
> - jz
>
>

You have a point, but these changes don't happen overnight. When your
storage medium if getting obsolete, you can move your archives to a new
media, and you will still have retained 100% of the quality of the original.
It may take a bit of archiving work every 5 or 10 years though.


"Harvey" <> wrote in message
news: s.com...
> While digital is theoretically able to be preserved forever, in 100 years
> the prints will still be there in some condition but alas there is
unlikely
> to be any easy way to decode or extract the data from the digital storage
> media. Even 15 years later how many computers are equipped to extract the
> images stored on 5 1/4 floppy discs, the predominant digital storage media
> of its time? Also consider that it is likely that the dyes in the CD-Rs
> presumably used to store the images will have long turned to mush before
the
> prints fade out.
>
> "Jeff Zawrotny" <> wrote in message
> news:...
> >
> > "Iconoclast" <> wrote in message
> > newsm1Cb.9371$...
> > > Since I had to explain to my wife the large expenditure for a new
> digital
> > > camera, I tried to allay her objections by pointing out that now we
will
> > be
> > > able to preserve digital copies of her genealogical photographs.
> > >
> > > But, she pointed out that her old black and white photographs would
not
> > fade
> > > anyway because the silver in B/W photos cannot change, although the
dies
> > in
> > > color photos would.
> > >
> > > Do B/W photos fade with age if they are properly fixated?
> >
> > B/W photos will last quite a long time IF...
> >
> > 1. They are printed on fiber-based paper
> >
> > 2. They are properly fixed, AND
> >
> > 3. The fixer (and all other chemicals) are very thoroughly washed from
the
> > print
> >
> > (and 4. The prints are stored at proper temperature/humidity and
protected
> > from U/V light)
> >
> > How long is quite a long time? 100 years or more.
> >
> > Now if these black and white prints are done at your local
> > 1-hr/send-away-and-pray photo lab, there's certainly no guarantee that
any
> > of these conditions will be met, and I'll lay 10:1 odds that they don't
> > follow the first 3, since most print on RC paper, which doesn't really
> allow
> > all the chemicals to be washed out of the prints, even if you really
> tried.
> >
> > Color prints and prints from inkjets do not have this sort of longevity,
> > although new advances in inkjet pigments and dyes are taking place all
the
> > time. Marketing hype aside, we won't know what the true durability of
> > inkjet prints will be for decades or more.
> >
> > As a side note, if you're trying to preserve digital copies of her
> > genealogical photographs, why are you buying a digital camera instead of
a
> > digital scanner? A $100 (or less) scanner will provide much better
> digital
> > archives of prints than a camera on a copy stand would.
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> > - jz
> >
> >
>
>

Enter Your Full Name wrote:

>
> You have a point, but these changes don't happen overnight. When your
> storage medium if getting obsolete, you can move your archives to a new
> media, and you will still have retained 100% of the quality of the
> original.

Unless the media has -any- type of failure then you have 100% loss!
--

Stacey

stacey <> wrote in news:bre3kv$2eugv$-
berlin.de:

> Unless the media has -any- type of failure then you have 100% loss!

Or your negatives are cought in a fire.

It is much easier to make backup copies of digital storage.
If it is important to you - make backups - several - in several
places.


Roland