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Printing pictures question

 
 
battlelance
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      12-05-2003
This is not exactly related to digital photography, but I figured it
was digital enough to ask the very knowledgable folks in this
newsgroup.

I've since gone digital, but I have a drawer full of 35mm color
negatives so I've scanned the negatives in (I have a Epson Perfection
1200U Photo.. what a nice scanner), and I want to print 8x10s...

Now my problem is, when I look at the picture at 4x6, it looks great.
When I set the size to 8x10 in photoshop, it looks really grainy. Is
this normal with film? I was under the impression that with 35mm film
you could produce good quality 8x10s?

Any help or insight (or just a slap on the head if I'm out of whack!)
would be great.

Cheers!

_BL
 
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Robertwgross
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      12-06-2003
battlelance wrote:
>This is not exactly related to digital photography, but I figured it
>was digital enough to ask the very knowledgable folks in this
>newsgroup.
>
>I've since gone digital, but I have a drawer full of 35mm color
>negatives so I've scanned the negatives in (I have a Epson Perfection
>1200U Photo.. what a nice scanner), and I want to print 8x10s...
>
>Now my problem is, when I look at the picture at 4x6, it looks great.
>When I set the size to 8x10 in photoshop, it looks really grainy. Is
>this normal with film? I was under the impression that with 35mm film
>you could produce good quality 8x10s?
>
>Any help or insight (or just a slap on the head if I'm out of whack!)
>would be great.


First of all, tell us what the approximate file size is for a typical scan.
Second, tell us the file format (TIF, JPEG, etc.). That should tell whether you
have enough data to print to a larger size.

Most of my 35mm film scans start at about 100MB and go up to about 150MB, each.

---Bob Gross---
 
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Jim Townsend
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      12-06-2003
battlelance wrote:

> This is not exactly related to digital photography, but I figured it
> was digital enough to ask the very knowledgable folks in this
> newsgroup.
>
> I've since gone digital, but I have a drawer full of 35mm color
> negatives so I've scanned the negatives in (I have a Epson Perfection
> 1200U Photo.. what a nice scanner), and I want to print 8x10s...


You've digitized photographs, so the photographs are now digital so it's on
topic

> Now my problem is, when I look at the picture at 4x6, it looks great.
> When I set the size to 8x10 in photoshop, it looks really grainy. Is
> this normal with film? I was under the impression that with 35mm film
> you could produce good quality 8x10s?
>
> Any help or insight (or just a slap on the head if I'm out of whack!)
> would be great.


Wow.. Hard to answer with no information.. What resolution did you scan the
pictures at ? How did you change the size ? Did you mess with the PPI and
constrain boxes ?

Here's a great resource that tells you everything you want to know about
scanning and printing: www.scantips.com


 
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Bill Hilton
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      12-06-2003
>From: battlelance http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)

>I've since gone digital, but I have a drawer full of 35mm color
>negatives so I've scanned the negatives in (I have a Epson Perfection
>1200U Photo.. what a nice scanner), and I want to print 8x10s...
>
>Now my problem is, when I look at the picture at 4x6, it looks great.
>When I set the size to 8x10 in photoshop, it looks really grainy. Is
>this normal with film?


The specs on this scanner say it scans at 1200 x 2400 dpi, so I'd guess you're
actually scanning at 1,200 dpi, right? If so, this means your file size is
about 1100 x 1650 pixels.

If this is right then your problem is you don't have high enough rez to get
enough pixels to make a good large print. If you printed 8x10" at 200 ppi
(pixels per inch) you'd need 1600 x 2000 pixels. Printing your file (if I have
the size right) means you're printing at ~130 ppi and this is not enough
resolution for good results.

>I was under the impression that with 35mm film
>you could produce good quality 8x10s?


I can do a lot better than 8x10 prints with my film scanner. It scans at 4,000
dpi so my 35 mm scans are about 3,600 x 5,400 pixels and I can print 12 x 18"
prints at 300 ppi. 8x12" prints mean I have 450 ppi rez. See the problem with
a 1200 dpi scanner?

You need more resolution to get quality large prints, it's not the film's fault
as you're leaving a lot on the table with your scanner.

Bill
 
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Mark Herring
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      12-06-2003
On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 23:55:49 GMT, battlelance
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>This is not exactly related to digital photography, but I figured it
>was digital enough to ask the very knowledgable folks in this
>newsgroup.
>
>I've since gone digital, but I have a drawer full of 35mm color
>negatives so I've scanned the negatives in (I have a Epson Perfection
>1200U Photo.. what a nice scanner), and I want to print 8x10s...
>
>Now my problem is, when I look at the picture at 4x6, it looks great.
>When I set the size to 8x10 in photoshop, it looks really grainy. Is
>this normal with film? I was under the impression that with 35mm film
>you could produce good quality 8x10s?
>
>Any help or insight (or just a slap on the head if I'm out of whack!)
>would be great.
>
>Cheers!
>
>_BL

This scanner has an optical resolution of 1200dpi (ppi to be more
accurate)
35mm film is roughly 1 x 1.5", so you are getting total files of 1200
X 1800 pixels. Put that on 8 X 10 and you have around 150 ppi after
cropping. Not good.

As a minimum, get one of the newer scanners with higher optical
resolution---AT LEAST 2400 ppi (true optical resolution).

Better: A 2800 ppi dedicated film scanner---now very cheap

Best: 4000 or 5400 ppi film scanner ($$$$)
**************************
Mark Herring, Pasadena, Calif.
Private e-mail: Just say no to "No".

 
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Rafe B.
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      12-06-2003
On 06 Dec 2003 01:08:21 GMT, (E-Mail Removed) (Robertwgross) wrote:


>Most of my 35mm film scans start at about 100MB and go up to about 150MB, each.



At what bit depth? Or, asked another way, how many megapixels?

Frankly, I'm beginning to doubt that even the most perfect 35 mm
frame holds much more than 20 Mpixels worth of real information.

See: http://www.terrapinphoto.com/jmdavis

Feel free to send me a scan snippet if you feel you can beat
any of those scans. (0.25" by 0.25" at native scan resolution.)


rafe b.
 
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battlelance
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      12-06-2003
On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 02:49:07 GMT, Rafe B. <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:


>Feel free to send me a scan snippet if you feel you can beat
>any of those scans. (0.25" by 0.25" at native scan resolution.)


Actually, the pictures in the link you provided are a great example of
the grain I'm talking about...

Maybe it's just my eyes, but you can clearly see the grain:

http://www.terrapinphoto.com/jmdavis/buildingb.jpg <- In the sky
http://www.terrapinphoto.com/jmdavis/duomo.jpg <- everywhere


 
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Ronald Hands
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      12-06-2003

> battlelance wrote:


>>
>>Now my problem is, when I look at the picture at 4x6, it looks great.
>>When I set the size to 8x10 in photoshop, it looks really grainy. Is
>>this normal with film? I was under the impression that with 35mm film
>>you could produce good quality 8x10s?


Something's amiss here. If, as others have suggested, you're
achieving a resolution of 1600 x 1200, or 150 ppi when set for an 8 x
10, then I can't see why Photoshop is showing a "grainy" image, since
150 ppi is far more resolution than the average monitor provides. Are
you sure Photoshop isn't locked to 72 ppi (and consequently when set to
8 x 10 is displaying an image that's far bigger than your monitor screen)?
If this sounds like what's happening, then it's probably time to find
out how to change the display resolution in Photoshop.
Perhaps, in Photoshop, you could do the same thing that I do in
Photoshop Elements 2.0: use the crop tool, set the options bar for 8 by
10 (or 10 by 8, if it's a horizontal shot) and delete any box that shows
resolution. Turn on the rulers, do the crop, do any other improvements,
save it, and send it for
printing. I get the exact size I want (and the rulers confirm it) and
I'm always surprised how good the 8 x 10s are, even at 150 ppi or less.
I never seem to see any grainy image in PSE unless I really zoom in.
My camera is a 2 mp model so it does 1600 x 1200 as its best
resolution and I haven't yet lusted for more. (Pix from a recent trip:
<www.mountaincable.net/~rhands> )

-- Ron




 
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battlelance
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      12-06-2003
On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 18:29:34 -0800, Mark Herring
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:


>This scanner has an optical resolution of 1200dpi (ppi to be more
>accurate)
>35mm film is roughly 1 x 1.5", so you are getting total files of 1200
>X 1800 pixels. Put that on 8 X 10 and you have around 150 ppi after
>cropping. Not good.


Great information. Now, I know my scanner can only do 1200dpi optical,
but how come it allows me to select up to 9600 dpi?

Last time I picked 9600 dpi the file was like 600 meg and took about
45 minutes to scan. What happens when I pick a resolution over the
optical resolution, and does it do anything for the quality of the
image?
 
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Bill Hilton
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      12-06-2003
>From: battlelance (E-Mail Removed)

> I know my scanner can only do 1200dpi optical,
>but how come it allows me to select up to 9600 dpi?


It interpolates, which means it's using the optical data and creating new
pixels. This is not a good thing.
 
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