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Fuji claims.

 
 
Bill
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      11-26-2003
As far as the Fuji S602, it is a 3MP camera with a 3MP sensor. It is sold as
such by Fuji and labeled as such on the box! At least as far as this model
is concerned, Fuji is not scamming the public. Yes the Super CCD has a
unique design, but it is a 3MP sensor. Now they do include a 6MP mode IF the
user chooses to use it....and yes that would be interpolated. However, this
is no different than anyone using any other camera, transferring an image
into the computer and using their photo editing software to resample to a
larger size if they want to. But Fuji included this option in their
firmware...again...the OPTION. It's no different than other manufacturers
who choose to include in the camera's firmware OPTIONS to enhance color,
sharpness,
etc. Personally, I prefer to do any of those things on the PC where I can
see what I'm doing. I don't like to modify an image in the camera...not even
cropping. I can always do that later.

But my point here is that Fuji, at least with the S602, is not trying to
fool anyone. They do not call it a 6MP camera nor do they advertise it as
such. The box is clearly labeled as a 3MP camera. They do mention the 6MP
mode as a feature only.

Bill


 
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This Old Man
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      11-26-2003

"Bill" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:n37xb.7084$dO2.2997@lakeread03...
> As far as the Fuji S602, it is a 3MP camera with a 3MP sensor. It is sold

as
> such by Fuji and labeled as such on the box! At least as far as this model
> is concerned, Fuji is not scamming the public. Yes the Super CCD has a
> unique design, but it is a 3MP sensor. Now they do include a 6MP mode IF

the
> user chooses to use it....and yes that would be interpolated. However,

this
> is no different than anyone using any other camera, transferring an image
> into the computer and using their photo editing software to resample to a
> larger size if they want to. But Fuji included this option in their
> firmware...again...the OPTION. It's no different than other manufacturers
> who choose to include in the camera's firmware OPTIONS to enhance color,
> sharpness,
> etc. Personally, I prefer to do any of those things on the PC where I can
> see what I'm doing. I don't like to modify an image in the camera...not

even
> cropping. I can always do that later.
>
> But my point here is that Fuji, at least with the S602, is not trying to
> fool anyone. They do not call it a 6MP camera nor do they advertise it as
> such. The box is clearly labeled as a 3MP camera. They do mention the 6MP
> mode as a feature only.
>
> Bill


That's one excellent camera. As soon as they drop below $300 on ebay I'm
getting another.


 
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Chris Gunn
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      11-27-2003
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:21:55 -0500, "Bill" <(E-Mail Removed)>

>unique design, but it is a 3MP sensor. Now they do include a 6MP mode IF the
>user chooses to use it....and yes that would be interpolated. However, this
>is no different than anyone using any other camera, transferring an image
>into the computer and using their photo editing software to resample to a
>larger size if they want to. But Fuji included this option in their


You are mistaken.

You suggest that the 6mp file is achieved through an interpolation
routine such as bilinear or lanczos etc, as available in photo
editors.

This is not the case.

It is not possible to obtain the 6mp file from the 3mp file.

The 6mp file has more data, as shown by the resolution charts.

The 6mp file is the native format. The 3mp file is obtained by
resampling the 6mp file, not the other way around.

I recommend you do some research before posting such nonsence.

Gunn

602.
 
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Christian
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      11-27-2003
Chris Gunn wrote:

> You are mistaken.
> You suggest that the 6mp file is achieved through an interpolation
> routine such as bilinear or lanczos etc, as available in photo
> editors.
> This is not the case.


Well, it sort of is. There are only 3 million photosites so to obtain 6
million pixels there has to be some process of "creating" those additional
pixels and this process is essentially interpolation. However, Fuji have
two advantages in how they do this. The first is that it is done with the
raw CCD data (i.e., before colour interpolation) but of course there are
many cameras which can do this, albeit in software rather than in camera.
The second is the hexagonal arrangement of the pixels supposedly improves
the effectiveness of the interpolation process. A lot of people would
consider this debatable, however, some of the results at dpreview.com
suggest there is some merit in the claim, although it applies *primarily*
to DSLRs with their larger sensor sizes. However, even for compact
digitals there seems to be a small resolution advantage. But it certainly
isn't a two-to-one (e.g., 6 megapixel to 3 megapixel) advantage.

> It is not possible to obtain the 6mp file from the 3mp file.


Of course it is. Megapixels is just the number of pixels. You can create
as many pixels as you like. How much useful image information they contain
is another question.

> The 6mp file has more data, as shown by the resolution charts.


It's double the size so it obviously contains more data. But what you mean
is that it contains more information, which it probably does. But not
twice as much.

> The 6mp file is the native format. The 3mp file is obtained by
> resampling the 6mp file, not the other way around.


Well, it's still a 3 megapixel sensor so again it's debatable whether the 6
MP format is the "native" format. Yes, the camera always interpolates its
3 megapixels to produce 6 before then downsampling back to 3 (if requested)
but the image still only comes from a 3 megapixel sensor, albeit one
capable of capturing a slightly more detail than an average 3 megapixel
sensor.

In any case, none of this theory matters because the results speak for
themselves! The SuperCCD certainly provides more resolution than standard
CCDs, although not significantly more and particularly not for digicams
such as the 602Z.
 
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JPS@no.komm
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      11-27-2003
In message <n37xb.7084$dO2.2997@lakeread03>,
"Bill" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>But my point here is that Fuji, at least with the S602, is not trying to
>fool anyone. They do not call it a 6MP camera nor do they advertise it as
>such. The box is clearly labeled as a 3MP camera. They do mention the 6MP
>mode as a feature only.


I wouldn't treat it that way. If the camera uses the superCCD with this
pattern:

0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0

Then you *MUST* get the 6mp files from the camera to see everything the
camera captured. A 3mp file from the camera *IS* a downsampling, and
throws away detail.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <(E-Mail Removed)>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><

 
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JPS@no.komm
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      11-27-2003
In message <bq3qv6$6p1$(E-Mail Removed)>,
Christian <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>The second is the hexagonal arrangement of the pixels


There is no "hexagonal" anything in the superCCD. The pixel centers
fall like one color of a checkerboard; a square grid rotated 45 degrees.
The pixels themselves are octagonal.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <(E-Mail Removed)>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><

 
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JPS@no.komm
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      11-27-2003
In message <bq3qv6$6p1$(E-Mail Removed)>,
Christian <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Well, it's still a 3 megapixel sensor so again it's debatable whether the 6
>MP format is the "native" format.


It's not debateable. No file with anything less than 6mp can contain
everything cpatured by a 3mp superCCD.

A 3mp output file has absolutely no correlation to the 3mp sensor.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <(E-Mail Removed)>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><

 
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Mark Herring
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      11-27-2003
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 14:42:06 +1300, Chris Gunn
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>This is not the case.
>
>It is not possible to obtain the 6mp file from the 3mp file.
>
>The 6mp file has more data, as shown by the resolution charts.
>
>The 6mp file is the native format. The 3mp file is obtained by
>resampling the 6mp file, not the other way around.
>
>I recommend you do some research before posting such nonsence.
>
>Gunn


At the risk of reigniting some very old debates.......

The basic resolution of the S602 (ie the number of samples acquired by
the CCD) is 3.1 Mpixels. You will find this in Fuji literature and in
all the reviews.

The 6Mp output file is obtained thru interpolation---AKA upsampling.

The most consistent thing that I have seen about the Fuji issues is
theri claim that the diagonal sensor arrangement increases resoluion
in the horiz and vertical where it matter most. Skeptics have argued
that the whole thing was just a trick to get better response to test
targets.

It is certainly true that the sampling pattern in the CCD can affect
the resolution in certain axes---that may be what you are referring
to.

All this aside, the fact remains that the camera starts with 3.1Mp
from the sensor---the 6Mp file is created later on in the processing.

**************************
Mark Herring, Pasadena, Calif.
Private e-mail: Just say no to "No".

 
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Bill
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      11-27-2003
Why *MUST* you? There are only 3.1 million photodiodes on the sensor,
regardless of the way they are arranged, and despite their octagonal shape.
I am very pleased with my S602, but it is what it is.
Bill

<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> In message <n37xb.7084$dO2.2997@lakeread03>,
> "Bill" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> >But my point here is that Fuji, at least with the S602, is not trying to
> >fool anyone. They do not call it a 6MP camera nor do they advertise it as
> >such. The box is clearly labeled as a 3MP camera. They do mention the 6MP
> >mode as a feature only.

>
> I wouldn't treat it that way. If the camera uses the superCCD with this
> pattern:
>
> 0 0 0 0 0
> 0 0 0 0
> 0 0 0 0 0
> 0 0 0 0
>
> Then you *MUST* get the 6mp files from the camera to see everything the
> camera captured. A 3mp file from the camera *IS* a downsampling, and
> throws away detail.
> --
>
> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
> John P Sheehy <(E-Mail Removed)>
> ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><



 
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Bart van der Wolf
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      11-27-2003

"Bill" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:mOmxb.7349$dO2.3002@lakeread03...
> Why *MUST* you? There are only 3.1 million photodiodes on the sensor,
> regardless of the way they are arranged, and despite their octagonal

shape.

The arrangement makes the difference, causing a must if you don't want to
throw away actual samples. Try extracting all samples from a grid where each
line is staggered by half a pixel. For a rectangular output grid you must
double the number of cells, but only half of them are filled with the
original staggered samples. Might as well fill in the blanks as the
demosaicing is done...

Bart


 
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