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Does Epson Stylus Photo 700 really do ICM at all?

 
 
Michael A. Covington
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2003
Greetings,

After an evening of experimenting, I am beginning to doubt whether the ICM
color management of my Epson Stylus Photo 700 has any effect at all.

As I understand it, ICM should map the colors of the screen onto the color
gamut of the printer, preserving hues as best it can while reducing the
saturation as needed. This is a moderately complicated adjustment in a 2-
or 3-dimensional space, which is why we have ICM to do it for us.

And this should happen when I print to the Epson 700 color space and set the
Epson driver to "no color adjustment," or when I print to "Printer Color
Management" and set the printer to "ICM". (I also tried printing to Epson
700 color space and selecting ICM. No difference.) I'm printing from
Photoshop 6.

Well, it doesn't happen. The colors are too saturated, blocked-up as if out
of gamut, and too warm.

However, if I choose fully manual color management in the printer driver, I
can turn down the saturation, turn up the cyan, and get a reasonable
facsimile of what is on the screen. This is not as sophisticated as ICM but
it's at least a way of getting prints that, on the first try, don't look
*grossly* different from the screen.

Am I missing something here? Is there a secret ICM driver for this printer,
other than the one that comes with the driver? Something else I should
check? I tried quite a variety of printer settings, and except for fully
manual color adjustment, they all seemed exactly the same (and identically
wrong).

Also, what does PhotoEnhance do? I wasn't using it because my understanding
is that it attempts to adjust the color automatically.

Last: Is there a *cheap* inkjet printer now on the market that will
outperform the Stylus Photo 700? I'm at the point of wondering whether to
spend $45 on another set of cartridges for this old printer that I never
quite mastered, or get something new for $100 to $200 that will actually do
color matching. Canon? HP? A newer Epson?

Thanks!


Michael Covington -- www.covingtoninnovations.com
Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur
and (new) How to Use a Computerized Telescope



 
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Ed E.
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2003
I found Epson's support for the 700 to be extremely disappointing. I always
had problems with their software and drivers on any OS beyond Windows 98.
But when it worked, it worked nicely. I couldn't get the colors quite where
they needed to be, but the image was still acceptable and very crisp. I
couldn't use anything other than Epson cartridges if I wanted colors
anywhere near accurate.

There has been quite a bit of advancement in technology since that printer
has been discontinued (about 5 years now?) I'd suggest reviewing some of
the newer printers and seeing if one doesn't more closely suit your needs.
The next time you go to buy ink, see if that money makes sense to invest in
something that will get you to where you want to be.


 
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Michael A. Covington
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2003

"Ed E." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> I found Epson's support for the 700 to be extremely disappointing. I

always
> had problems with their software and drivers on any OS beyond Windows 98.
> But when it worked, it worked nicely. I couldn't get the colors quite

where
> they needed to be, but the image was still acceptable and very crisp. I
> couldn't use anything other than Epson cartridges if I wanted colors
> anywhere near accurate.
>
> There has been quite a bit of advancement in technology since that printer
> has been discontinued (about 5 years now?) I'd suggest reviewing some of
> the newer printers and seeing if one doesn't more closely suit your needs.
> The next time you go to buy ink, see if that money makes sense to invest

in
> something that will get you to where you want to be.


That is exactly what I'm doing. Instead of $45 worth of ink, I'm wondering
about $100 to $200 worth of new printer (with ink).

Do later Epsons support ICM properly?

Should I be looking at Canon? i960? What models?

This is for relatively low-volume printing of photographs. Many of them are
scientific images where automatic color balancing is *not* wanted; I want to
adjust the color on my screen and then print what I see. I know about gamut
limitations, etc., so I'm not naively expecting the printout to look just
like the screen image, but I'd at least like to have technologies such as
ICM help me out a little.

Looking at the Epson Stylus Photo 700 manual, it looks like ICM was an
afterthought -- the manual indicates that it's there but gives almost no
indication of what to expect from it. Maybe they never really implemented
it, and all these years, their ICM profile is really just a piece of
temporary do-nothing code.


 
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Ed E.
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2003

> Do later Epsons support ICM properly?
>
> Should I be looking at Canon? i960? What models?


I wish I could be of more help here, but I take all of my stuff to a local
lab to have printed now. In my case, it out to be less expensive, look more
professional, and the prints last much longer. I'm hoping that some others
here can be of some help to you.


 
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Safetymom123
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2003
I would look at the new Epsons. They give great results. Also have you
adjusted your monitor so you are seeing the image correctly.


"Michael A. Covington" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
in message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Greetings,
>
> After an evening of experimenting, I am beginning to doubt whether the ICM
> color management of my Epson Stylus Photo 700 has any effect at all.
>
> As I understand it, ICM should map the colors of the screen onto the color
> gamut of the printer, preserving hues as best it can while reducing the
> saturation as needed. This is a moderately complicated adjustment in a 2-
> or 3-dimensional space, which is why we have ICM to do it for us.
>
> And this should happen when I print to the Epson 700 color space and set

the
> Epson driver to "no color adjustment," or when I print to "Printer Color
> Management" and set the printer to "ICM". (I also tried printing to Epson
> 700 color space and selecting ICM. No difference.) I'm printing from
> Photoshop 6.
>
> Well, it doesn't happen. The colors are too saturated, blocked-up as if

out
> of gamut, and too warm.
>
> However, if I choose fully manual color management in the printer driver,

I
> can turn down the saturation, turn up the cyan, and get a reasonable
> facsimile of what is on the screen. This is not as sophisticated as ICM

but
> it's at least a way of getting prints that, on the first try, don't look
> *grossly* different from the screen.
>
> Am I missing something here? Is there a secret ICM driver for this

printer,
> other than the one that comes with the driver? Something else I should
> check? I tried quite a variety of printer settings, and except for fully
> manual color adjustment, they all seemed exactly the same (and identically
> wrong).
>
> Also, what does PhotoEnhance do? I wasn't using it because my

understanding
> is that it attempts to adjust the color automatically.
>
> Last: Is there a *cheap* inkjet printer now on the market that will
> outperform the Stylus Photo 700? I'm at the point of wondering whether to
> spend $45 on another set of cartridges for this old printer that I never
> quite mastered, or get something new for $100 to $200 that will actually

do
> color matching. Canon? HP? A newer Epson?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Michael Covington -- www.covingtoninnovations.com
> Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur
> and (new) How to Use a Computerized Telescope
>
>
>



 
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W. W. Schwolgin
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2003
"Michael A. Covington" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
> Greetings,
>
> After an evening of experimenting, I am beginning to doubt whether the ICM
> color management of my Epson Stylus Photo 700 has any effect at all.
>
> As I understand it, ICM should map the colors of the screen onto the color
> gamut of the printer, preserving hues as best it can while reducing the
> saturation as needed. This is a moderately complicated adjustment in a 2-
> or 3-dimensional space, which is why we have ICM to do it for us.
>
> And this should happen when I print to the Epson 700 color space and set the
> Epson driver to "no color adjustment," or when I print to "Printer Color
> Management" and set the printer to "ICM". (I also tried printing to Epson
> 700 color space and selecting ICM. No difference.) I'm printing from
> Photoshop 6.
>
> Well, it doesn't happen. The colors are too saturated, blocked-up as if out
> of gamut, and too warm.
>
> However, if I choose fully manual color management in the printer driver, I
> can turn down the saturation, turn up the cyan, and get a reasonable
> facsimile of what is on the screen. This is not as sophisticated as ICM but
> it's at least a way of getting prints that, on the first try, don't look
> *grossly* different from the screen.
>
> Am I missing something here? Is there a secret ICM driver for this printer,
> other than the one that comes with the driver? Something else I should
> check? I tried quite a variety of printer settings, and except for fully
> manual color adjustment, they all seemed exactly the same (and identically
> wrong).
>
> Also, what does PhotoEnhance do? I wasn't using it because my understanding
> is that it attempts to adjust the color automatically.
>
> Last: Is there a *cheap* inkjet printer now on the market that will
> outperform the Stylus Photo 700? I'm at the point of wondering whether to
> spend $45 on another set of cartridges for this old printer that I never
> quite mastered, or get something new for $100 to $200 that will actually do
> color matching. Canon? HP? A newer Epson?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Michael Covington -- www.covingtoninnovations.com
> Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur
> and (new) How to Use a Computerized Telescope


Michael,

for colormanagement with a(n Epson) printer you need
- a colormanagement software like photoshop
- "no color adjustment" in the driver
- ICC-profiles that fit to your printer and paper (that the clue)

If you can specify "no color adjustment", the printer supports
colormangement if the photoeditor supports it.

You have to specify an icc-profile in the photoeditor in the print
dialog.
The big problem is to find the right icc-profile, especially for third
party paper. The photoeditor converts the data from the working color
space to the printer color space.

That's all

What is your working color space ? the paper ? the icc-profile ?


Winfried
 
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Michael A. Covington
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2003

"Safetymom123" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:sWtub.22261$(E-Mail Removed). com...
> I would look at the new Epsons. They give great results. Also have you
> adjusted your monitor so you are seeing the image correctly.


Yes, the monitor has been adjusted with Adobe Gamma, and also, I have been
working from the numbers (RGB values) so in some cases I know exactly how
the picture should be looking.

ICM apparently has no effect on this printer.


 
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Michael A. Covington
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2003

"W. W. Schwolgin" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...

> for colormanagement with a(n Epson) printer you need
> - a colormanagement software like photoshop
> - "no color adjustment" in the driver
> - ICC-profiles that fit to your printer and paper (that the clue)
>
> If you can specify "no color adjustment", the printer supports
> colormangement if the photoeditor supports it.
>
> You have to specify an icc-profile in the photoeditor in the print
> dialog.
> The big problem is to find the right icc-profile, especially for third
> party paper. The photoeditor converts the data from the working color
> space to the printer color space.
>
> That's all
>
> What is your working color space ? the paper ? the icc-profile ?


Working space, Adobe RGB.
Monitor calibrated with Adobe Gamma, and I'm also looking at the RGB numbers
to double-check.

ICM profile: Epson Stylus Photo 700.
"No Color Adjustment" or "ICM" in the printer driver (they give the same
results).

I think the problem is that the ICM profile for the printer doesn't really
do the job, and no other profile is available for it as best I can
determine.


 
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Chris McBrien
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2003
"Michael A. Covington" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
> "Ed E." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > I found Epson's support for the 700 to be extremely disappointing. I

> always
> > had problems with their software and drivers on any OS beyond Windows 98.
> > But when it worked, it worked nicely. I couldn't get the colors quite

> where
> > they needed to be, but the image was still acceptable and very crisp. I
> > couldn't use anything other than Epson cartridges if I wanted colors
> > anywhere near accurate.
> >
> > There has been quite a bit of advancement in technology since that printer
> > has been discontinued (about 5 years now?) I'd suggest reviewing some of
> > the newer printers and seeing if one doesn't more closely suit your needs.
> > The next time you go to buy ink, see if that money makes sense to invest

> in
> > something that will get you to where you want to be.

>
> That is exactly what I'm doing. Instead of $45 worth of ink, I'm wondering
> about $100 to $200 worth of new printer (with ink).
>
> Do later Epsons support ICM properly?
>
> Should I be looking at Canon? i960? What models?
>
> This is for relatively low-volume printing of photographs. Many of them are
> scientific images where automatic color balancing is *not* wanted; I want to
> adjust the color on my screen and then print what I see. I know about gamut
> limitations, etc., so I'm not naively expecting the printout to look just
> like the screen image, but I'd at least like to have technologies such as
> ICM help me out a little.
>
> Looking at the Epson Stylus Photo 700 manual, it looks like ICM was an
> afterthought -- the manual indicates that it's there but gives almost no
> indication of what to expect from it. Maybe they never really implemented
> it, and all these years, their ICM profile is really just a piece of
> temporary do-nothing code.


I get similar problems with my Epson Stylus Photo 750, again
about four years old. I go through screen setups on my ViewSonic P815
sticking pieces of card with cutouts on the screen and entering which
one is closest to the colour. Yet still my prints are NOT exactly what
I get on the screen. It is always rather faded. I have to up the Reds
and contrast to get a good print.

Is just getting a newer printer the answer?

Chris.
 
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VT
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2003
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 00:52:06 -0500, "Michael A. Covington"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>And this should happen when I print to the Epson 700 color space and set the
>Epson driver to "no color adjustment," or when I print to "Printer Color
>Management" and set the printer to "ICM". (I also tried printing to Epson
>700 color space and selecting ICM. No difference.) I'm printing from
>Photoshop 6.
>
>Well, it doesn't happen. The colors are too saturated, blocked-up as if out
>of gamut, and too warm.


Just checking.......

A lot of problems come when BOTH the printer's own color management
and the photo editor's color management are used at the same time -
ie: getting in effect DOUBLE color management.

This is a case of EITHER/OR - ie:

EITHER use the photo editor's color management only with the printer
set to No color adjustment..

OR turn off the photo editor's color management, and print with the
printer's color management, in this case ICM.

but NOT BOTH.

Here's a rather good article:

Out of Gamut: Color Management Made Stupid
By Bruce Fraser

http://www.creativepro.com/printerfr...tory/2440.html
--
Vincent
remove CLOTHES for e-mail

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
 
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