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Velocity Reviews > Newsgroups > Computing > Digital Photography > Let's nitpick dpreview's SD-10 "specs" for a moment

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Let's nitpick dpreview's SD-10 "specs" for a moment

 
 
George Preddy
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2003
Sigma SD-10
--------------
TypeDigital SLR (lens interchangeable)
Body materialHigh-impact plastic / rubber (metal substructure)
Price (kit inc. two lenses)US - $ 1999 [check /order]
UK - £ 1249 [check /order]
* Includes the SD10 body, 18 - 50 mm DC & 55 - 200 mm DC lenses
Price (body only)UK - £ 1099 [check /order]
Sensor. Foveon X3 Pro 10M CMOS Image Sensor
. 20.7 x 13.8 mm
Photodetectors10.3 million (2268 x 1512 x 3)

Ok so far...

Total pixel locations2304 x 1536

Hey, what happened to the "x 3" noted above? Does a 3 chip camera only have
1 chip's worth of pixel loactions?

Effective pixel locations2268 x 1512

Same comment. And if one is talking purely output/interpolated pixels, and
not discrete sensors, why not note 13.72MP worth of pixel locations, as is
noted below?

Pixel pitch9.12 Ķm x 9.12 Ķm
Analog to digital converter12-bits per photo detector (36 bits per pixel
location)
Optical filterNo
MicrolensesYes
Sensitivity. ISO 100
. ISO 200
. ISO 400
. ISO 800
. ISO 1600 (Extended mode)
Image sizes. 2268 x 1512 (HI)
. 1512 x 1008 (MED)
. 1134 x 756 (LOW)
* Can output a double-size 4536 x 3024 from Photo Pro software

Interesting. Never does dpreview note that all Bayer output is already
"double-size" (interpolated, 4:1).

Image formatsFoveon X3 lossless compressed RAW (.X3F)
Color space. Captures RAW data
. Photo Pro software outputs in sRGB, Apple RGB, Adobe RGB,ColorMatch RGB
Lens mountSigma SA mount
Field of view crop1.7x (also known as focal length multiplier)
AutofocusTTL phase detection
AF IlluminatorNone
Focus areaOne
Lens servo. Single Servo AF (S)
. Continuous Servo AF (C) with motion prediction function
Focus lockHalf-press of shutter release
Metering. 8-segment Evaluative
. Center
. Center-Weighted Average
Metering range1 - 20 EV
Exposure mode. (P) Program AE
. (A) Aperture-Priority Auto
. (S) Shutter-Priority Auto
. (M) Manual
Exposure compensation+/-3 EV in 0.3 EV steps
AE LockDedicated AEL button
AE Bracketing. Three images
. Compensation steps: 0.3 - 3.0 EV
Shutter type. Vertical travel metal focal plane shutter
. Electronically controlled through entire speed range
Shutter speed. ISO 100,200: 15 - 1/6000 sec
. ISO 400,800: 4 - 1/6000 sec
. Bulb (up to limits as above)
. Extended mode up to 30 sec
Depth-of-field previewButton, stops-down lens aperture
X-Sync shutter speedUp to 1/180 sec

But with up to 1/6000 sec available using the EF500 DG Super.

Shooting modes. Single frame
. Continuous shooting
. Self-timer 10 sec
. Self-timer 2 sec
Continuous mode. 2268 x 1512: 1.9 fps for 6 frames
. 1512 x 1008: 2.4 fps for 14 frames
. 1134 x 756: 2.5 fps for 30 frames

Right. Non-interpolated. And the SD-9/10's 1512 x 1008 non-interpolated
output contains the exact same amount of color data as all 6MP interpolated
("double size") Bayer images. No note of this?

White balance. Auto
. Sunlight (~5400 K)
. Shade (~8000 K)
. Overcast (~6000 K)
. Incandescent (~3150 K)
. Fluorescent (~4100 K)
. Flash (~5850 K)
. Custom
* As the SD10 shoots RAW white balance can be modified later in
the Photo Pro software
White balance bracketing: No

Does that really matter, given the asterisk above it?

Sync contactHot-shoe, X-contact only (also has dedicated Sigma link
contact)
Flash control. STTL automatic flash exposure
. Only: Sigma EF-500 DG Super SA, EF-500 DG ST SA flash units
Built-in flashNone
ViewfinderPentaprism SLR viewfinder
Viewfinder eyepoint18 mm
Viewfinder frame coverage98% horizontal, 97% vertical
Viewfinder magnification0.77 x
Viewfinder informationFlash indicator, Focus indicator, Shutter speed,
AEL indicator, Aperture, Auto Bracket
indicator,
Exposure compensation
Viewfinder diopter adjustment-3 dpt to +1 dpt
Focusing screenSports finder (area outside sensor coverage is shown
darker)
Focusing screen information. Auto Focus frame
. Center Area Metering
StorageCompactFlash Type I/II
Microdrive compatibleYes
LCD monitor. 1.8"
. 130,000 pixel TFT
. 100% frame coverage
Playback functions. Single image full screen
. Magnified (full screen or histogram)
. Histogram (thumbnail, histogram, exposure info)
. Thumbnail (9 images)
. Slide Show
Record preview. Off
. 2, 5 or 10 secs
. Hold
. Single image / Info (inc. Histogram)
Menu languages. English
. Japanese
. German
. French
Video outputNTSC or PAL selectable
Connectivity. Firewire (IEEE 1394)
. USB 1.1
Power. 4 x AA batteries (NiMH recommended)
or . 2 x Lithium CR-V3 (non-rechargeable)
Dimensions152 x 120 x 79 mm (6.0 x 4.7 x 3.1 in)
Weight (no battery)785 g (1.7 lb)
Included SoftwareSigma Photo Pro 2.0 (Workflow / RAW conversion)
Photo Pro image adjustments. White Balance (stored in X3F file)
. Exposure (EV compensation +/- 2.0 in 0.1 EV steps)
. Contrast (+/-2.0 in 0.1 steps)
. Shadow (+/-2.0 in 0.1 steps)
. Highlight (+/-2.0 in 0.1 steps)
. Saturation (+/-2.0 in 0.1 steps)
. Sharpness (+/-2.0 in 0.1 steps)
. X3 Fill Light (+/-2.0 in 0.1 steps)
. Color Balance (CMY adjustment wheel)
Photo Pro output. Images: All, Marked, Selected
. Format: TIFF (8 or 16-bit), JPEG (EXIF / JFIF - 12 levels)
. Size: Same size, Double size, Half size
. Color space: sRGB, Apple RGB, Adobe RGB, ColorMatch RGB
. Adjustment: Default, Auto, Custom (previously saved settings)
Photo Pro misc. Can transfer images directly from camera
. Image rotation
. Loupe magnification
. Monitor gamma verification
. Mark / Lock
. Image info
. Live adjustment
. Over / Under exposure warning indication
. Image adjustments can be stored in X3F file

Not too bad overall, but there really isn't an excuse for the
errors/ommisions.



 
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MarkH
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2003
"George Preddy" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:bnngv4$kev$(E-Mail Removed):

> Sigma SD-10
> Sensor. Foveon X3 Pro 10M CMOS Image Sensor
> . 20.7 x 13.8 mm
> Photodetectors10.3 million (2268 x 1512 x 3)
>
> Ok so far...
>
> Total pixel locations2304 x 1536
>
> Hey, what happened to the "x 3" noted above? Does a 3 chip camera
> only have 1 chip's worth of pixel loactions?


Maybe Phil is not stupid and actually knows what he is talking about.

> Effective pixel locations2268 x 1512
>
> Same comment. And if one is talking purely output/interpolated
> pixels, and not discrete sensors, why not note 13.72MP worth of pixel
> locations, as is noted below?


How can there be 13.72MP worth of pixel locations? There are only 10.3M
sensors and since there are 3 sensors per location there are a total of
3.4M locations.

> Image sizes. 2268 x 1512 (HI)
> . 1512 x 1008 (MED)
> . 1134 x 756 (LOW)
> * Can output a double-size 4536 x 3024 from Photo Pro software
>
> Interesting. Never does dpreview note that all Bayer output is
> already "double-size" (interpolated, 4:1).


Because that is NOT true, also this is a review of the SD-10 which has
nothing to do with Bayer. With Bayer one colour value is know for each
location, 2 colour are guessed by interpolation Ė this means that 1/3
data is real and 2/3 is guessed. The 4:1 interpolation is a fiction that
you have made up.

> X-Sync shutter speedUp to 1/180 sec
>
> But with up to 1/6000 sec available using the EF500 DG Super.


Was Phil reviewing the EF500 DG Super as part of this review?

> Not too bad overall, but there really isn't an excuse for the
> errors/ommisions.


The only errors are yours. You donít understand how Bayer works and you
donít understand how Foveon works.

You seem determined to stake your claim to the title of group dunce.




--
Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~markh/
"There are 10 types of people, those that
understand binary and those that don't"

 
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George Preddy
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2003

"MarkH" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:bnnuli$vg0$(E-Mail Removed)...
> "George Preddy" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> news:bnngv4$kev$(E-Mail Removed):
>
> > Sigma SD-10
> > Sensor. Foveon X3 Pro 10M CMOS Image Sensor
> > . 20.7 x 13.8 mm
> > Photodetectors10.3 million (2268 x 1512 x 3)
> >
> > Ok so far...
> >
> > Total pixel locations2304 x 1536
> >
> > Hey, what happened to the "x 3" noted above? Does a 3 chip camera
> > only have 1 chip's worth of pixel loactions?

>
> Maybe Phil is not stupid and actually knows what he is talking about.


Is that why he tests the optical resolution of color interpolating camera
using B&W lens-test charts?


> > Effective pixel locations2268 x 1512
> >
> > Same comment. And if one is talking purely output/interpolated
> > pixels, and not discrete sensors, why not note 13.72MP worth of pixel
> > locations, as is noted below?

>
> How can there be 13.72MP worth of pixel locations? There are only 10.3M
> sensors and since there are 3 sensors per location there are a total of
> 3.4M locations.


3D, not 2D.

> > Image sizes. 2268 x 1512 (HI)
> > . 1512 x 1008 (MED)
> > . 1134 x 756 (LOW)
> > * Can output a double-size 4536 x 3024 from Photo Pro software
> >
> > Interesting. Never does dpreview note that all Bayer output is
> > already "double-size" (interpolated, 4:1).

>
> Because that is NOT true,


It is absolutely true Bayer's are all interpolated. Maybe Phil doesn't know
that either.

> also this is a review of the SD-10 which has
> nothing to do with Bayer. With Bayer one colour value is know for each
> location, 2 colour are guessed by interpolation - this means that 1/3
> data is real and 2/3 is guessed. The 4:1 interpolation is a fiction that
> you have made up.
>
> > X-Sync shutter speedUp to 1/180 sec
> >
> > But with up to 1/6000 sec available using the EF500 DG Super.

>
> Was Phil reviewing the EF500 DG Super as part of this review?


How can you use it without a flash?

> > Not too bad overall, but there really isn't an excuse for the
> > errors/ommisions.

>
> The only errors are yours. You don't understand how Bayer works and you
> don't understand how Foveon works.
>
> You seem determined to stake your claim to the title of group dunce.


You don't even realize Bayers interpolate.


 
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MarkH
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2003
"George Preddy" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:bnnu27$gv$(E-Mail Removed):

>
> "MarkH" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:bnnuli$vg0$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> "George Preddy" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
>> news:bnngv4$kev$(E-Mail Removed):
>>
>> > Sigma SD-10
>> > Sensor. Foveon X3 Pro 10M CMOS Image Sensor
>> > . 20.7 x 13.8 mm
>> > Photodetectors10.3 million (2268 x 1512 x 3)
>> >
>> > Ok so far...
>> >
>> > Total pixel locations2304 x 1536
>> >
>> > Hey, what happened to the "x 3" noted above? Does a 3 chip camera
>> > only have 1 chip's worth of pixel loactions?

>>
>> Maybe Phil is not stupid and actually knows what he is talking about.

>
> Is that why he tests the optical resolution of color interpolating
> camera using B&W lens-test charts?


Yes, I dear say it is.

>> > Effective pixel locations2268 x 1512
>> >
>> > Same comment. And if one is talking purely output/interpolated
>> > pixels, and not discrete sensors, why not note 13.72MP worth of
>> > pixel locations, as is noted below?

>>
>> How can there be 13.72MP worth of pixel locations? There are only
>> 10.3M sensors and since there are 3 sensors per location there are a
>> total of 3.4M locations.

>
> 3D, not 2D.


WHAT?

Seriously, WHAT?


>> > Interesting. Never does dpreview note that all Bayer output is
>> > already "double-size" (interpolated, 4:1).

>>
>> Because that is NOT true,

>
> It is absolutely true Bayer's are all interpolated. Maybe Phil
> doesn't know that either.


Yes all Bayer data is interpolated, but that doesnít make what you said
true. Please try to understand, I agree that Bayer data is interpolated
but you are wrong about HOW it is interpolated.

>> > X-Sync shutter speedUp to 1/180 sec
>> >
>> > But with up to 1/6000 sec available using the EF500 DG Super.

>>
>> Was Phil reviewing the EF500 DG Super as part of this review?

>
> How can you use it without a flash?


How is that an answer to my question?

> You don't even realize Bayers interpolate.


I have explained to you in MANY posts how Bayer interpolation works, I
not only know that they interpolate but also (unlike you) I understand
HOW they interpolate.

I have not yet seen any posts from anyone on this newsgroup claiming that
Bayer data is not interpolated. If you think that people donít realise
that the Bayer data is interpolated it is not from what you read here.
(maybe itís the voices in your head that tell you that)


--
Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~markh/
"There are 10 types of people, those that
understand binary and those that don't"

 
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George Preddy
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2003

"MarkH" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:bno3ui$3l4$(E-Mail Removed)...
> "George Preddy" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> news:bnnu27$gv$(E-Mail Removed):
>
> >
> > "MarkH" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > news:bnnuli$vg0$(E-Mail Removed)...
> >> "George Preddy" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> >> news:bnngv4$kev$(E-Mail Removed):
> >>
> >> > Sigma SD-10
> >> > Sensor. Foveon X3 Pro 10M CMOS Image Sensor
> >> > . 20.7 x 13.8 mm
> >> > Photodetectors10.3 million (2268 x 1512 x 3)
> >> >
> >> > Ok so far...
> >> >
> >> > Total pixel locations2304 x 1536
> >> >
> >> > Hey, what happened to the "x 3" noted above? Does a 3 chip camera
> >> > only have 1 chip's worth of pixel loactions?
> >>
> >> Maybe Phil is not stupid and actually knows what he is talking about.

> >
> > Is that why he tests the optical resolution of color interpolating
> > camera using B&W lens-test charts?

>
> Yes, I dear say it is.
>
> >> > Effective pixel locations2268 x 1512
> >> >
> >> > Same comment. And if one is talking purely output/interpolated
> >> > pixels, and not discrete sensors, why not note 13.72MP worth of
> >> > pixel locations, as is noted below?
> >>
> >> How can there be 13.72MP worth of pixel locations? There are only
> >> 10.3M sensors and since there are 3 sensors per location there are a
> >> total of 3.4M locations.

> >
> > 3D, not 2D.

>
> WHAT?
>
> Seriously, WHAT?


Read up on how Foveon works. Sensors are layer in 3D.

> >> > Interesting. Never does dpreview note that all Bayer output is
> >> > already "double-size" (interpolated, 4:1).
> >>
> >> Because that is NOT true,

> >
> > It is absolutely true Bayer's are all interpolated. Maybe Phil
> > doesn't know that either.

>
> Yes all Bayer data is interpolated, but that doesn't make what you said
> true. Please try to understand, I agree that Bayer data is interpolated
> but you are wrong about HOW it is interpolated.


Doesn't matter what the routine is used, raw data limits potential quality
to the number of complete RGB sets collected.

> >> > X-Sync shutter speedUp to 1/180 sec
> >> >
> >> > But with up to 1/6000 sec available using the EF500 DG Super.
> >>
> >> Was Phil reviewing the EF500 DG Super as part of this review?

> >
> > How can you use it without a flash?

>
> How is that an answer to my question?
>
> > You don't even realize Bayers interpolate.

>
> I have explained to you in MANY posts how Bayer interpolation works, I
> not only know that they interpolate but also (unlike you) I understand
> HOW they interpolate.
>
> I have not yet seen any posts from anyone on this newsgroup claiming that
> Bayer data is not interpolated. If you think that people don't realise
> that the Bayer data is interpolated it is not from what you read here.
> (maybe it's the voices in your head that tell you that)


Lashing out immaturely won't help you prove that a 6MP-interpolated Bayer
image isn't formed from 1.5MP sets of RGB data, because it is. It is 4:1
interpolated, up-scaled. 4 output pixels per RGB color set, which need
only be represented as 1. Foveon takes an RGB color set and presents it
properly as 1 output pixel. Or, optionally, the SD-9 outputs 4:1
interpolated at 13.72MP. Thats the beauty of having so many more sensors
than a 6MP-interpolated Bayer.



 
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Ray Fischer
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2003
George Preddy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Sigma SD-10
> --------------
> TypeDigital SLR (lens interchangeable)
> Body materialHigh-impact plastic / rubber (metal substructure)
> Price (kit inc. two lenses)US - $ 1999 [check /order]
> UK - £ 1249 [check /order]
> * Includes the SD10 body, 18 - 50 mm DC & 55 - 200 mm DC lenses
> Price (body only)UK - £ 1099 [check /order]
> Sensor. Foveon X3 Pro 10M CMOS Image Sensor
> . 20.7 x 13.8 mm
> Photodetectors10.3 million (2268 x 1512 x 3)
>
>Ok so far...
>
> Total pixel locations2304 x 1536
>
>Hey, what happened to the "x 3" noted above?


Don't you know the difference between "sensor" and "pixel"?

> Does a 3 chip camera only have
>1 chip's worth of pixel loactions?


Ya know, it's bad enough that you care only about the technology of
the chip, but that you don't even understand half of the bullshit you
spew makes you truly an idiot.

> Effective pixel locations2268 x 1512
>
>Same comment.


Maybe you should learn what "pixel" means?

--
Ray Fischer
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)

 
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Azzz1588
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2003
In article <bno4k6$4m3$(E-Mail Removed)>, "George Preddy"
<(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

>Thats the beauty of having so many more sensors
>than a 6MP-interpolated Bayer.


Wow, now you are really streaching.

Or is it just plain lying...

Even Sigma says that it is a 3.34 mp camera.


You sir (madam, or whatever) are a real live idiot.
(besides being a liar)



















"Only a Gentleman can insult me, and a true Gentleman never will..."


 
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George Preddy
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2003

"Azzz1588" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> In article <bno4k6$4m3$(E-Mail Removed)>, "George Preddy"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>
> >Thats the beauty of having so many more sensors
> >than a 6MP-interpolated Bayer.

>
> Wow, now you are really streaching.


http://www.pbase.com/image/22273598

> Or is it just plain lying...
>
> Even Sigma says that it is a 3.34 mp camera.


http://www.sigma-photo.com

> You sir (madam, or whatever) are a real live idiot.
> (besides being a liar)


That was easy.


 
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George Preddy
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2003
"Ray Fischer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:bnopnu$gc6$(E-Mail Removed)...
> George Preddy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > Sigma SD-10
> > --------------
> > TypeDigital SLR (lens interchangeable)
> > Body materialHigh-impact plastic / rubber (metal substructure)
> > Price (kit inc. two lenses)US - $ 1999 [check /order]
> > UK - £ 1249 [check /order]
> > * Includes the SD10 body, 18 - 50 mm DC & 55 - 200 mm DC lenses
> > Price (body only)UK - £ 1099 [check /order]
> > Sensor. Foveon X3 Pro 10M CMOS Image Sensor
> > . 20.7 x 13.8 mm
> > Photodetectors10.3 million (2268 x 1512 x 3)
> >
> >Ok so far...
> >
> > Total pixel locations2304 x 1536
> >
> >Hey, what happened to the "x 3" noted above?

>
> Don't you know the difference between "sensor" and "pixel"?


Main Entry: pix∑el
Pronunciation: 'pik-s&l, -"sel
Function: noun
Etymology: pix + element
Date: 1969
1 : any of the small discrete elements that together constitute an image (as
on a television screen)
2 : any of the detecting elements of a charge-coupled device used as an
optical sensor

> > Does a 3 chip camera only have
> >1 chip's worth of pixel loactions?

>
> Ya know, it's bad enough that you care only about the technology of
> the chip, but that you don't even understand half of the bullshit you
> spew makes you truly an idiot.


See above and below.

> > Effective pixel locations2268 x 1512
> >
> >Same comment.

>
> Maybe you should learn what "pixel" means?


Maybe you should do your homework before posting a message to me.




 
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Stanley Krute
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-29-2003
What I'm finally figuring out here is that George
gets pleasure from the abuse he invites. Kind
of an intellectual masochism kinda thing.

So anyone thinking he'll ever stop if debated/attacked,
fuhgeddabowdit. Just fuels his fun.

Sorry I'm so slow on the uptake.

stan


 
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