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Has Foveon future?

 
 
ThomasH
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      10-17-2003

The time passes and seemingly with the exception of Sigma,
nobody is really eager to replace the color pattern sensors
with the Foveon chip.

Sony has even clearly indicated its decision to stick with
the color pattern sensors by releasing its original 4-color
chip with RGBE pattern (E=Emerald, similar to desaturated
cyan) promising to cover a wider color gamut.

Nikon's latest chip for the D2H is also a color pattern
cheap, so is the chip in the latest Olympus 3/4 E1 DSLR.


The concept of Foveon appeared sound, what went wrong?


Thomas
 
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JPS@no.komm
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      10-18-2003
In message <(E-Mail Removed)>,
ThomasH <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>The time passes and seemingly with the exception of Sigma,
>nobody is really eager to replace the color pattern sensors
>with the Foveon chip.
>
>Sony has even clearly indicated its decision to stick with
>the color pattern sensors by releasing its original 4-color
>chip with RGBE pattern (E=Emerald, similar to desaturated
>cyan) promising to cover a wider color gamut.
>
>Nikon's latest chip for the D2H is also a color pattern
>cheap, so is the chip in the latest Olympus 3/4 E1 DSLR.
>
>
>The concept of Foveon appeared sound, what went wrong?


The camera only uses Sigma lenses, which means no image stabilization is
possible, and less quality lenses to chose from.

The output is noisier than anticipated in theory.

The camera has no anti-aliasing filter, and the files look a bit too
sharp out of the camera.

The benefits of having 3 color samples at each cell site are highly
over-rated.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <(E-Mail Removed)>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><

 
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bmoag
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      10-18-2003
Sony and a few others manufacture the majority of sensors used in all
digital cameras. Foveon cannot break that stranglehold and lacks the capital
to go much further. Also consumers are used to the sorts of heavy processing
that yields the images they are getting off current sensor types: it is a
case where the apparent qualities of the image outweigh the actual technical
qualities of the image.


 
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David J. Littleboy
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      10-18-2003

"ThomasH" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> The time passes and seemingly with the exception of Sigma,
> nobody is really eager to replace the color pattern sensors
> with the Foveon chip.
>
> Sony has even clearly indicated its decision to stick with
> the color pattern sensors by releasing its original 4-color
> chip with RGBE pattern (E=Emerald, similar to desaturated
> cyan) promising to cover a wider color gamut.
>
> Nikon's latest chip for the D2H is also a color pattern
> cheap, so is the chip in the latest Olympus 3/4 E1 DSLR.
>
>
> The concept of Foveon appeared sound, what went wrong?


It wasn't sound; the human eye's luminance resolution is about 3 times it's
chrominance resolution. So Bayers sensors provide nearly the exactly right
ratio of luminance to chrominance information. Foveon provides information
you can't see. Not particularly useful.

They managed to fool a few people by leaving off the antialiasing filter, so
Sigma sold a few cameras to folks who flunked, or never took, an intro to
digital signal processing course.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan


 
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Tony Spadaro
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      10-18-2003
Basically the pictures are not impressing anyone, and without impressive
pictures it's real hard to convince anyone to buy a whole new camera
system - especially Sigma.

--
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"ThomasH" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> The time passes and seemingly with the exception of Sigma,
> nobody is really eager to replace the color pattern sensors
> with the Foveon chip.
>
> Sony has even clearly indicated its decision to stick with
> the color pattern sensors by releasing its original 4-color
> chip with RGBE pattern (E=Emerald, similar to desaturated
> cyan) promising to cover a wider color gamut.
>
> Nikon's latest chip for the D2H is also a color pattern
> cheap, so is the chip in the latest Olympus 3/4 E1 DSLR.
>
>
> The concept of Foveon appeared sound, what went wrong?
>
>
> Thomas



 
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David J. Littleboy
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      10-18-2003

"Tony Spadaro" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Basically the pictures are not impressing anyone, and without impressive
> pictures it's real hard to convince anyone to buy a whole new camera
> system - especially Sigma.


Actually, the pictures _are_ impressing people. Most people don't notice the
gross aliasing on near horizontal and near vertical lines, so the images
appear very sharp out of the camera. Looking at the images, my guess is that
the sensel area is quite small relative to the size of the pixel (the pixel
spacing), and combined with the lack of an antialiasing filter, that gives
extremely sharp extremely high contrast images, that, per pixel, look a lot
sharper than the mainstream dSLR images. If you don't mind all your detail
being in the wrong place by up to 1/2 the pixel spacing, it's quite amazing.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan


 
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George Preddy
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      10-18-2003
ThomasH <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
> The time passes and seemingly with the exception of Sigma,
> nobody is really eager to replace the color pattern sensors
> with the Foveon chip.
>
> Sony has even clearly indicated its decision to stick with
> the color pattern sensors by releasing its original 4-color
> chip with RGBE pattern (E=Emerald, similar to desaturated
> cyan) promising to cover a wider color gamut.
>
> Nikon's latest chip for the D2H is also a color pattern
> cheap, so is the chip in the latest Olympus 3/4 E1 DSLR.
>
>
> The concept of Foveon appeared sound, what went wrong?


It is sound, the SD-9 is an amazing digital camera. The Foveon sensor
presents both unique opportunities and unique
challenges--unfortunately the challenges just aren't worth Joe
Schmoe's time, even with 10.3MP for the price of 5MP. But if you want
the best digital image quality money can buy, the SD-9 stands head and
shoulders above the rest.

The only two DSLRs that can give it's image quality a run for its
$1000 price tag are the 14n and the 1Ds. The 1Ds is a fantastic all
around machine at an even more fantastic price, but in typical Canon
fashion the sensor is way too blurry and a bit too low res for its
specs. The 14n is every bit a match for the SD-9's optical
resolution, since the SD-9 lack of a need for a blur filter and no
requirement for color interpolation about makes up for the 14n's
slightly higher sensor count, but it is an even less refined machine
than the first Sigma effort. The 6MP DSLRs are essentially prosumer
camera in terms of image quality, if not worse than some high end
prosumers, but with exceptional build quality, but none even approach
the image quality of the SD-9, 1Ds, or 14n.

As far as the price, things are quite interesting right now. Sigma's
marketing strategy is completely different than any other DSLR
manufacturer, since it only has 1 dog in the digital camera race and
Sigma makes their real money on lenses, not cameras. So they hardware
dump the SD-9 to sell lenses. They could probably give the SD-9 away
and still make tons of money on the lens demand it creates, which is
why its a proprietary mount, btw. They'll continue to drop the price
to keep production capacity at 100%, and they will happily cut into
the prosumer price structure to the tune of no bottom. The big camera
manufactures must hate them.
 
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Matti Vuori
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      10-18-2003
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) (George Preddy) wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed) om:
> The only two DSLRs that can give it's image quality a run for its
> $1000 price tag are the 14n and the 1Ds. The 1Ds is a fantastic all
> around machine at an even more fantastic price, but in typical Canon
> fashion the sensor is way too blurry and a bit too low res for its
> specs.


How can a _sensor_ be too low res for its specs? More likely the lenses
just can't cut it.

> As far as the price, things are quite interesting right now. Sigma's
> marketing strategy is completely different than any other DSLR
> manufacturer, since it only has 1 dog in the digital camera race


It is not necessarily a "strategy". Creatind a DSLR is a tremendous effort
and every manufacturer has to start with one model. Do a count: how many
removable lens DSLR's does Olympus have now? And estimate how many they
will have in five years?

--
Matti Vuori, <http://sivut.koti.soon.fi/mvuori/index-e.htm>

 
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Chris Brown
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      10-18-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>The benefits of having 3 color samples at each cell site are highly
>over-rated.


In addition to this, I'm given to understand that the actual frequency
seperation of each sample is less than ideal for creating RGB output,
leading to questionable colour accuracy and performance in some situations.
I am given to understand that this isn't so bad provided you are willing to
trade off a bit of dynamic range at the top-end and expose slightly less
than you might otherwise want to. The upshot is that, although the Sigma SLR
produces impressive resolution for a 3 megapixel camera (albeit at the
expense of some aliasing), the colour accuracy can leave something to be
desired. YMMV.
 
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Bart van der Wolf
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      10-18-2003

"George Preddy" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
SNIP
> It is sound, the SD-9 is an amazing digital camera. The Foveon sensor
> presents both unique opportunities and unique
> challenges--unfortunately the challenges just aren't worth Joe
> Schmoe's time, even with 10.3MP for the price of 5MP.


Oh boy, here we go again.
The camera is only 2268x1512=3429216 pixels or 3.3MP.

The rest of your comments sound like you're trying to justify your purchase,
so I'll leave them for what they are, ill-informed marketing blah-blah at
best.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I suggest reading some of the earlier threads
in this group. You might learn enough to avoid basing you purchase decision
on a folder next time.

Bart


 
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