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Security Ordeal at Shopping Center Taking Photos (longer post)

 
 
DigitalCameraBasics
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-05-2003
Yesterday was the grand opening of what they are calling an "open air mall"
in my area. The "Cousins Properties" contractors are building these in
Atlanta (called "The Avenues") and soon in other parts of the country. The
theory is that people are now tired of enclosed malls, so these glorified
shopping centers are being built. About 40 or so stores in each one, with
the facades of each business being a bit different, so that it mimics an old
town main street.

There has been much hype over this for a time, and being the first day and a
"grand opening", and also being a shopping center and not an enclosed mall,
I thought nothing of taking my camera along with me to snap some photos of
the event and festivities. I was impressed with the way it was built, and
was going to include an article on it on my local web site I do to promote
it to potential shoppers.

So, I walk around for an hour and take photos. On my way back to my car, a
security guard in an electric buggy stops and tells me it is illegal to take
photos of anything on this property. I asked why and she said because they
did not allow it, period. I was done anyway, so proceeded to my car to drop
off my camera (I was going to shop there next). She followed me to my car,
and once I dropped off my camera and started walking back to the store area,
I told her I was going to stop by the management offices to get "official
ok" for the photos.

She "insisted" that I not continue, and that I get into her buggy so that
SHE could drive me to the offices. She did, took me into the offices and
told the gal behind the main counter she saw.. GASP.. "this man" taking
photos!! I guess you could say that even though the word "arrest" was not
used, the fact I was told to be escorted to their offices made it a "mild
arrest"? I actually had called what I thought were their offices a month
ealier and whoever I talked to (yep, I forgot to write their name down) told
me taking pics of the grand opening was ok.. when I told this to the
security guard she replied, "I doubt that".

Anyway - I waited a while for the center's manager to show up, and she was
what I'd call "distantly polite" about it, but told me that no, no one is
allowed to take photos of anything there at all because as she said, "Many
of the stores do not like it". She said she'd have someone from their main
office call me but being Friday PM, I assume it'll be next week before I
hear from anyone if I ever do.

For the record, I called four of the stores there after I got home and
talked with managers, asking them if they hated having photos taken of their
store for a web page, and all of their replies were, "No way, it's free
advertising for us!".

Ok.. now, just how much of a stink should I raise? The manager wasn't that
bad, but the "arrest" (so to speak), being called a liar by the guard, and
being hauled into the offices by that deputy doodey reallllllllly got me
burned. I was actually going to buy a new lens for one of my cameras and
some CDs at the stores, but after this decided to take my money to another
area, so they lost a few hundred dollars from me at least that day. Still
deciding if I want to do an article that instead of promoting the center,
tells this story instead. Am I going nutty over nothing, or do I have a
right to get ticked?

** Another note ** The guard at one point told me "soliciting" was
forbidden. I tried to point out to her I was not a salesman nor was I
dropping off literature for products, etc., but she said that taking photos
was "soliciting" and I could be arrested for doing it (the tone was "I just
might do that"). No where on the property was there even a no soliciting
sign, much less a "photographing this property is prohibited"; my opinion is
that if a property does not want people to take photos, signs should be
clearly visible stating so.

Reasonable comments and thoughts on this accepted.

Greg






 
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David
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-05-2003
http://www.digitalcamerabasics.com/gallery.htm why no pictures of the mall?


 
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CSM1
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-05-2003
"DigitalCameraBasics" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:OWLfb.29182$(E-Mail Removed) link.net...
> Yesterday was the grand opening of what they are calling an "open air

mall"
> in my area. The "Cousins Properties" contractors are building these in
> Atlanta (called "The Avenues") and soon in other parts of the country. The
> theory is that people are now tired of enclosed malls, so these glorified
> shopping centers are being built. About 40 or so stores in each one, with
> the facades of each business being a bit different, so that it mimics an

old
> town main street.
>
> There has been much hype over this for a time, and being the first day and

a
> "grand opening", and also being a shopping center and not an enclosed

mall,
> I thought nothing of taking my camera along with me to snap some photos of
> the event and festivities. I was impressed with the way it was built, and
> was going to include an article on it on my local web site I do to promote
> it to potential shoppers.
>
> So, I walk around for an hour and take photos. On my way back to my car, a
> security guard in an electric buggy stops and tells me it is illegal to

take
> photos of anything on this property. I asked why and she said because they
> did not allow it, period. I was done anyway, so proceeded to my car to

drop
> off my camera (I was going to shop there next). She followed me to my car,
> and once I dropped off my camera and started walking back to the store

area,
> I told her I was going to stop by the management offices to get "official
> ok" for the photos.
>
> She "insisted" that I not continue, and that I get into her buggy so that
> SHE could drive me to the offices. She did, took me into the offices and
> told the gal behind the main counter she saw.. GASP.. "this man" taking
> photos!! I guess you could say that even though the word "arrest" was not
> used, the fact I was told to be escorted to their offices made it a "mild
> arrest"? I actually had called what I thought were their offices a month
> ealier and whoever I talked to (yep, I forgot to write their name down)

told
> me taking pics of the grand opening was ok.. when I told this to the
> security guard she replied, "I doubt that".
>
> Anyway - I waited a while for the center's manager to show up, and she was
> what I'd call "distantly polite" about it, but told me that no, no one is
> allowed to take photos of anything there at all because as she said, "Many
> of the stores do not like it". She said she'd have someone from their main
> office call me but being Friday PM, I assume it'll be next week before I
> hear from anyone if I ever do.
>
> For the record, I called four of the stores there after I got home and
> talked with managers, asking them if they hated having photos taken of

their
> store for a web page, and all of their replies were, "No way, it's free
> advertising for us!".
>
> Ok.. now, just how much of a stink should I raise? The manager wasn't that
> bad, but the "arrest" (so to speak), being called a liar by the guard, and
> being hauled into the offices by that deputy doodey reallllllllly got me
> burned. I was actually going to buy a new lens for one of my cameras and
> some CDs at the stores, but after this decided to take my money to another
> area, so they lost a few hundred dollars from me at least that day. Still
> deciding if I want to do an article that instead of promoting the center,
> tells this story instead. Am I going nutty over nothing, or do I have a
> right to get ticked?
>
> ** Another note ** The guard at one point told me "soliciting" was
> forbidden. I tried to point out to her I was not a salesman nor was I
> dropping off literature for products, etc., but she said that taking

photos
> was "soliciting" and I could be arrested for doing it (the tone was "I

just
> might do that"). No where on the property was there even a no soliciting
> sign, much less a "photographing this property is prohibited"; my opinion

is
> that if a property does not want people to take photos, signs should be
> clearly visible stating so.
>
> Reasonable comments and thoughts on this accepted.
>
> Greg
>


Next time write down the persons name, telephone number and title that gives
permission. Better to get a signed agreement.

Yes, I agree that you got shabby treatment from the security people. After
that kind of treatment from the security, I would absolutely take my
business elsewhere.

Try to get in contact with the person that you talked with at first that
gave permission and complain.
Tell the general manager of the mall to instruct the security people what
soliciting means.

Did you get to keep the photos that you took?
--
CSM1
http://www.carlmcmillan.com
--


 
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Ray Fischer
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-05-2003
DigitalCameraBasics <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
[...]
>So, I walk around for an hour and take photos. On my way back to my car, a
>security guard in an electric buggy stops and tells me it is illegal to take
>photos of anything on this property.


She's actually full of ****. There is no criminal law that makes it
illegal to take photos in a public place.

> I asked why and she said because they
>did not allow it, period.


That doens't make it illegal. All it means is that they can refuse to
let you onto their property with a camera.

> I was done anyway, so proceeded to my car to drop
>off my camera (I was going to shop there next). She followed me to my car,
>and once I dropped off my camera and started walking back to the store area,
>I told her I was going to stop by the management offices to get "official
>ok" for the photos.
>
>She "insisted" that I not continue, and that I get into her buggy so that
>SHE could drive me to the offices.


If I'd been feeling cranky I might have said soemthing rude and
refused.

> She did, took me into the offices and
>told the gal behind the main counter she saw.. GASP.. "this man" taking
>photos!! I guess you could say that even though the word "arrest" was not
>used, the fact I was told to be escorted to their offices made it a "mild
>arrest"?


False arrest would have earned them a nice lawsuit. In fact a
security guard has no more power to arrest anybody than do you.
Furthermore, taling pictures is not a crime and so not even a sworn
officer could arrest you.

[...]
>Ok.. now, just how much of a stink should I raise? The manager wasn't that
>bad, but the "arrest" (so to speak), being called a liar by the guard, and
>being hauled into the offices by that deputy doodey reallllllllly got me
>burned. I was actually going to buy a new lens for one of my cameras and
>some CDs at the stores, but after this decided to take my money to another
>area, so they lost a few hundred dollars from me at least that day. Still
>deciding if I want to do an article that instead of promoting the center,
>tells this story instead. Am I going nutty over nothing, or do I have a
>right to get ticked?


I'd be a lot more than ticked.

>** Another note ** The guard at one point told me "soliciting" was
>forbidden.


Security guards typically work minimum wage and have no legal
authority. They are not police officers.

> I tried to point out to her I was not a salesman nor was I
>dropping off literature for products, etc., but she said that taking photos
>was "soliciting" and I could be arrested for doing it (the tone was "I just
>might do that").


Ooooo! That definitely would have pushed me over the edge. Tell her
to go ahead and try it since you could use a hundred grand for false
arrest.

--
Ray Fischer
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)

 
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PTRAVEL
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-05-2003

"Ray Fischer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:blo9ku$gi8$(E-Mail Removed)...
> DigitalCameraBasics <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> [...]
> >So, I walk around for an hour and take photos. On my way back to my car,

a
> >security guard in an electric buggy stops and tells me it is illegal to

take
> >photos of anything on this property.

>
> She's actually full of ****. There is no criminal law that makes it
> illegal to take photos in a public place.


Malls aren't public places -- they're private property. A few states,
notably California, treat private malls as quasi-public forums for the
purposes of engaging in political speech. However, the First Amendment is
implicated by taking pictures.

Access to private property is by license. Violating the terms of the
license constitutes trespass. Trespass is illegal.

>
> > I asked why and she said because they
> >did not allow it, period.

>
> That doens't make it illegal. All it means is that they can refuse to
> let you onto their property with a camera.


See above.

>
> > I was done anyway, so proceeded to my car to drop
> >off my camera (I was going to shop there next). She followed me to my

car,
> >and once I dropped off my camera and started walking back to the store

area,
> >I told her I was going to stop by the management offices to get "official
> >ok" for the photos.
> >
> >She "insisted" that I not continue, and that I get into her buggy so that
> >SHE could drive me to the offices.

>
> If I'd been feeling cranky I might have said soemthing rude and
> refused.
>
> > She did, took me into the offices and
> >told the gal behind the main counter she saw.. GASP.. "this man" taking
> >photos!! I guess you could say that even though the word "arrest" was not
> >used, the fact I was told to be escorted to their offices made it a "mild
> >arrest"?

>
> False arrest would have earned them a nice lawsuit. In fact a
> security guard has no more power to arrest anybody than do you.


Also not true. Most states permit merchants and their agents to "reasonably
detain" someone for whom they have a reasonable belief has violated the law
(and, as I've already explained, trespass is a violation of law). If the
detention was improper, however, there would be grounds for a law suit for
false imprisonment (not false arrest).

> Furthermore, taling pictures is not a crime and so not even a sworn
> officer could arrest you.


It is if you've been told not to and you're on private property.

>
> [...]
> >Ok.. now, just how much of a stink should I raise? The manager wasn't

that
> >bad, but the "arrest" (so to speak), being called a liar by the guard,

and
> >being hauled into the offices by that deputy doodey reallllllllly got me
> >burned. I was actually going to buy a new lens for one of my cameras and
> >some CDs at the stores, but after this decided to take my money to

another
> >area, so they lost a few hundred dollars from me at least that day. Still
> >deciding if I want to do an article that instead of promoting the center,
> >tells this story instead. Am I going nutty over nothing, or do I have a
> >right to get ticked?

>
> I'd be a lot more than ticked.


Under the circumstances, I would have been, too. When this kind of garbage
happens, I pull out my business card -- amazing how quickly these petty
martinet types back down when someone who knows the law explains it to them.

>
> >** Another note ** The guard at one point told me "soliciting" was
> >forbidden.

>
> Security guards typically work minimum wage and have no legal
> authority. They are not police officers.


See above. In most states they have the power to detain. And, of course,
anyone can make a citizen's arrest anywhere.

>
> > I tried to point out to her I was not a salesman nor was I
> >dropping off literature for products, etc., but she said that taking

photos
> >was "soliciting" and I could be arrested for doing it (the tone was "I

just
> >might do that").

>
> Ooooo! That definitely would have pushed me over the edge. Tell her
> to go ahead and try it since you could use a hundred grand for false
> arrest.


That's about what I would have said as well. Taking pictures is not
soliciting.

>
> --
> Ray Fischer
> (E-Mail Removed)
>



 
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W6DKN
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-05-2003
DigitalCameraBasics wrote:
<SNIP>
> So, I walk around for an hour and take photos. On my way back to my
> car, a security guard in an electric buggy stops and tells me it is
> illegal to take photos of anything on this property. I asked why and
> she said because they did not allow it, period. I was done anyway, so
> proceeded to my car to drop off my camera (I was going to shop there
> next). She followed me to my car, and once I dropped off my camera
> and started walking back to the store area, I told her I was going to
> stop by the management offices to get "official ok" for the photos.
>
> She "insisted" that I not continue, and that I get into her buggy so
> that SHE could drive me to the offices.


Was her "insistence" purely verbal? Did you voluntarily comply with her
request, or were you physically prevented the free movement of your person
by this guard ?

> She did, took me into the
> offices and told the gal behind the main counter she saw.. GASP..
> "this man" taking photos!! I guess you could say that even though the
> word "arrest" was not used, the fact I was told to be escorted to
> their offices made it a "mild arrest"?


You were not arrested, or even detained, under any circumstances unless you
were actually prevented from leaving the area or moving about at your own
discretion.

<SNIP>
> Ok.. now, just how much of a stink should I raise? The manager wasn't
> that bad, but the "arrest" (so to speak),

<SNIP>

Again, unless you were physically prevented from leaving or moving about at
will, you were not arrested, or even physically detained against your
will - you were asked to ride to the security office in the officer's cart
and you voluntarily complied with the request.

= Dan =


 
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Ron Hunter
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-05-2003
DigitalCameraBasics wrote:

> Yesterday was the grand opening of what they are calling an "open air mall"
> in my area. The "Cousins Properties" contractors are building these in
> Atlanta (called "The Avenues") and soon in other parts of the country. The
> theory is that people are now tired of enclosed malls, so these glorified
> shopping centers are being built. About 40 or so stores in each one, with
> the facades of each business being a bit different, so that it mimics an old
> town main street.
>
> There has been much hype over this for a time, and being the first day and a
> "grand opening", and also being a shopping center and not an enclosed mall,
> I thought nothing of taking my camera along with me to snap some photos of
> the event and festivities. I was impressed with the way it was built, and
> was going to include an article on it on my local web site I do to promote
> it to potential shoppers.
>
> So, I walk around for an hour and take photos. On my way back to my car, a
> security guard in an electric buggy stops and tells me it is illegal to take
> photos of anything on this property. I asked why and she said because they
> did not allow it, period. I was done anyway, so proceeded to my car to drop
> off my camera (I was going to shop there next). She followed me to my car,
> and once I dropped off my camera and started walking back to the store area,
> I told her I was going to stop by the management offices to get "official
> ok" for the photos.
>
> She "insisted" that I not continue, and that I get into her buggy so that
> SHE could drive me to the offices. She did, took me into the offices and
> told the gal behind the main counter she saw.. GASP.. "this man" taking
> photos!! I guess you could say that even though the word "arrest" was not
> used, the fact I was told to be escorted to their offices made it a "mild
> arrest"? I actually had called what I thought were their offices a month
> ealier and whoever I talked to (yep, I forgot to write their name down) told
> me taking pics of the grand opening was ok.. when I told this to the
> security guard she replied, "I doubt that".
>
> Anyway - I waited a while for the center's manager to show up, and she was
> what I'd call "distantly polite" about it, but told me that no, no one is
> allowed to take photos of anything there at all because as she said, "Many
> of the stores do not like it". She said she'd have someone from their main
> office call me but being Friday PM, I assume it'll be next week before I
> hear from anyone if I ever do.
>
> For the record, I called four of the stores there after I got home and
> talked with managers, asking them if they hated having photos taken of their
> store for a web page, and all of their replies were, "No way, it's free
> advertising for us!".
>
> Ok.. now, just how much of a stink should I raise? The manager wasn't that
> bad, but the "arrest" (so to speak), being called a liar by the guard, and
> being hauled into the offices by that deputy doodey reallllllllly got me
> burned. I was actually going to buy a new lens for one of my cameras and
> some CDs at the stores, but after this decided to take my money to another
> area, so they lost a few hundred dollars from me at least that day. Still
> deciding if I want to do an article that instead of promoting the center,
> tells this story instead. Am I going nutty over nothing, or do I have a
> right to get ticked?
>
> ** Another note ** The guard at one point told me "soliciting" was
> forbidden. I tried to point out to her I was not a salesman nor was I
> dropping off literature for products, etc., but she said that taking photos
> was "soliciting" and I could be arrested for doing it (the tone was "I just
> might do that"). No where on the property was there even a no soliciting
> sign, much less a "photographing this property is prohibited"; my opinion is
> that if a property does not want people to take photos, signs should be
> clearly visible stating so.
>
> Reasonable comments and thoughts on this accepted.
>
> Greg
>
>
>

The security guard was a serious idiot. What they attempted to do was
borderline illegal. I suggest you write a letter to the editor of you
local newspaper detailing your experience. I also suggest you shop
elsewhere, and tell all your friends to consider your experience and
decide if they want to patronize such a place.

Since you intended to PUBLISH (posting on a website IS publication) your
pictured, their interference violates the Freedom of the Press clause
(assuming you are in the US), and similar freedoms guaranteed by other
countries. What a stupid management.

 
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Paul Heslop
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-05-2003
DigitalCameraBasics wrote:

> Yesterday was the grand opening of what they are calling an "open air mall"
> in my area. The "Cousins Properties" contractors are building these in
> Atlanta (called "The Avenues") and soon in other parts of the country. The
> theory is that people are now tired of enclosed malls, so these glorified
> shopping centers are being built. About 40 or so stores in each one, with
> the facades of each business being a bit different, so that it mimics an old
> town main street.
>
> There has been much hype over this for a time, and being the first day and a
> "grand opening", and also being a shopping center and not an enclosed mall,
> I thought nothing of taking my camera along with me to snap some photos of
> the event and festivities. I was impressed with the way it was built, and
> was going to include an article on it on my local web site I do to promote
> it to potential shoppers.
>
> So, I walk around for an hour and take photos. On my way back to my car, a
> security guard in an electric buggy stops and tells me it is illegal to take
> photos of anything on this property. I asked why and she said because they
> did not allow it, period. I was done anyway, so proceeded to my car to drop
> off my camera (I was going to shop there next). She followed me to my car,
> and once I dropped off my camera and started walking back to the store area,
> I told her I was going to stop by the management offices to get "official
> ok" for the photos.
>
> She "insisted" that I not continue, and that I get into her buggy so that
> SHE could drive me to the offices. She did, took me into the offices and
> told the gal behind the main counter she saw.. GASP.. "this man" taking
> photos!! I guess you could say that even though the word "arrest" was not
> used, the fact I was told to be escorted to their offices made it a "mild
> arrest"? I actually had called what I thought were their offices a month
> ealier and whoever I talked to (yep, I forgot to write their name down) told
> me taking pics of the grand opening was ok.. when I told this to the
> security guard she replied, "I doubt that".
>
> Anyway - I waited a while for the center's manager to show up, and she was
> what I'd call "distantly polite" about it, but told me that no, no one is
> allowed to take photos of anything there at all because as she said, "Many
> of the stores do not like it". She said she'd have someone from their main
> office call me but being Friday PM, I assume it'll be next week before I
> hear from anyone if I ever do.
>
> For the record, I called four of the stores there after I got home and
> talked with managers, asking them if they hated having photos taken of their
> store for a web page, and all of their replies were, "No way, it's free
> advertising for us!".
>
> Ok.. now, just how much of a stink should I raise? The manager wasn't that
> bad, but the "arrest" (so to speak), being called a liar by the guard, and
> being hauled into the offices by that deputy doodey reallllllllly got me
> burned. I was actually going to buy a new lens for one of my cameras and
> some CDs at the stores, but after this decided to take my money to another
> area, so they lost a few hundred dollars from me at least that day. Still
> deciding if I want to do an article that instead of promoting the center,
> tells this story instead. Am I going nutty over nothing, or do I have a
> right to get ticked?
>
> ** Another note ** The guard at one point told me "soliciting" was
> forbidden. I tried to point out to her I was not a salesman nor was I
> dropping off literature for products, etc., but she said that taking photos
> was "soliciting" and I could be arrested for doing it (the tone was "I just
> might do that"). No where on the property was there even a no soliciting
> sign, much less a "photographing this property is prohibited"; my opinion is
> that if a property does not want people to take photos, signs should be
> clearly visible stating so.
>
> Reasonable comments and thoughts on this accepted.
>
> Greg
>
> [Image]
>
> [Image]


I would go to the press at least. you're being treat like a criminal for no
reason other than some 'Jobsworth' wants to feel big.


--
Paul. (Love with tongues of fire)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Not what it seems...
http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/


 
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mark_digital©
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-05-2003
We live in such a big beautiful country. There's so much to capture on film
and digital that doesn't entail entanglements with others. Get a life.
Short, sweet, and reasonable.
Mark_


 
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Paul Heslop
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-05-2003
"mark_digital©" wrote:

> We live in such a big beautiful country. There's so much to capture on film
> and digital that doesn't entail entanglements with others. Get a life.
> Short, sweet, and reasonable.
> Mark_


He has got a life, which involved taking some pictures in a setting which
should have been okay. How would 'getting a life' alter the way things
happened?


--
Paul. (Love with tongues of fire)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Not what it seems...
http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/


 
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Repost: Security Ordeal Taking Photos at Shopping Center. DigitalCameraBasics Digital Photography 109 10-21-2003 01:30 AM
Re: Security Ordeal at Shopping Center Taking Photos (longer post) Azzz1588 Digital Photography 8 10-09-2003 02:48 PM
Difference in module_eval taking block vs. taking string (1.8 bug?) Jim Cain Ruby 1 07-18-2003 02:01 AM



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