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Best Large Format Printer?

 
 
Savidge4
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      09-07-2003
>>>No real arguments with the above.
>>>
>>>Epsons are pretty slow; I know that now after using a Canon 9000
>>>for a year or so now.
>>>
>>>I ordered (and then returned) an HP Designjet 10 because of a
>>>concern about the longevity of the prints -- folks at HP were
>>>telling me, "it's a proofing printer." From the sample I got from
>>>HP, I could tell that the print quality was excellent.
>>>
>>>I understand the high end HP wide-format machines have
>>>pigment inks, but not sure about low or mid-range HPs that
>>>use pigments.
>>>
>>>Substrates are a non-issue -- there are so many alternate
>>>sources for these, and Epson is no slouch in this department
>>>either.
>>>
>>>I think one of the benefits of the Epsons is the piezo technology --
>>>the heads can squirt almost any kind of ink, and there are many
>>>alternate inks to choose from.

>>
>>
>>I personally think that substrates is a HUGE issue. You hear all the time

>in
>>regular at home printers that you get the best prints from such and such a
>>printer form Matte paper yada yada. That same thing is multiplied on large
>>format.
>>
>>If you have an HP large format and print the exact same print with HP paper
>>then a 3rd market paper you can SEE the difference. Let alone the ink

>pooling
>>and or su-low ink dry time.
>>
>>Printing is more than putting ink to paper. in todays world it is more kin

>to
>>chemistry than anything. when printing, the ink and paper form chemical

>bonds,
>>and if you need A & B for the "perfect" bond and you are using A & C, well

>its
>>not going to be its best and more than likely you will need to jump through
>>some hoops to get things right.
>>
>>A good example of this would be Illford paper. they make specific ink/paper
>>printer profiles. these profiles produce great results with the ink/paper
>>relationship. using Illford ink on say Epson paper may or may not produce

>good
>>results, but not the same quality that would be found with Illford paper.
>>
>>My thoughts on Piezo heads... sure they can squirt any kind of ink, and

>sure
>>they are somewhat better up front as far as print quality. But the moment

>you
>>start cleaning your print heads and doing the things that are required to

>get
>>the best possible print quality you are degrading the overall effectiveness

>of
>>of the Piezo print head.
>>
>>This is what ultimatly pushed me to HP, on my HP 500 for $30 a print head I
>>can replace them. for $125 a print head on my 5000 i can replace them. I

>can
>>control the quality of my printing over time. If i see degregation in print
>>quality, i can in essence "fix" that problem. With the Epson products, well
>>thats not possible.
>>Seems to me that spending $3000 let alone $15,000 you want longevity in

>your
>>investment. And I cant see how there would be an arguement that HP does not
>>provide that longevity with the simple added feature of replacing the single
>>most important element of printing, the print head itself.
>>

>
>
>First off, like I said -- Epson's own "branded" paper comes in a huge
>array of sizes and substrates. So many that it's really hard to keep
>track of them.
>
>Plus, there are any number of excellent sources of paper for inkjets
>now -- far too many to list here. Red River, Hawk Mountain, Legion,
>Hahnemuhle, Pictorico, Olmec, Canon, Fuji, Tetenal, Ilford... etc.
>etc.
>
>Yes, I'm fully aware that ink + paper is the key -- not just ink and
>not just paper. But I sure don't see where HP's got anything over
>Epson in terms of dealing with the print longevity issue.
>
>For those who are concerned about this, there are a few alternatives.
>First, go with pigment inks. Read Wilhelm's reports (with as many
>grains of salt as required.) And finally, do your own longevity tests
>-- as described nicely in Harald Johnson's book on digital printing.
>
>Yes, I think it's great that both HP and Canon have replaceable heads.
>A shame that Epson hasn't caught on to this, at least not in their
>smaller machines. On the 76/96xx printers, heads are replaceable,
>though it takes a bit of technical savvy and some skill to realign the
>new head(s).


In one sentence to say that you understand the relationship of paper to ink,
and another to suggest that there is a list of paper producers to long to list
here. That in itself is a contradiction in tems. in reality ALL of the
successful print longevity testing has been done with same brand paper and
inks. Again i will say that to suggest that the use of third party papers and
or inks will produce the same results as same kind ink/paper combination is
crazy.

The HP substrate product line far exceeds Epsons line, not including the many
3rd party HP partners such as 3m and the like that produce "HP Certified"
substrates. HP with no question provides the most versatility with its (HP and
HP certified partners) line of substrates.

I am sure you have read some of the information published by the Wilhelm
Imaging Research group. and in all cases it is very clearly stated what
printer, ink, and paper combinations is used, let alone the light, humidity,
air quality, temperature, and many other factors.

Print longevity is a science, plain and simple. below I have left a link to
HP's lightfastness whitepaper that details the many considerations as well as
thier 73 year print life claim. I will note that again and again they note the
use of Wilhelm Imaging Research group data as well as the same practices in
HP's own testing.

A interesting note to be seen in this whitesheet is the 73 year longevity is
NOT given to the Pigmented ink, but given to the Dye-sub ink. This paper also
goes on to suggest that there has been some possible errors in the reporting of
Pigment ink longevity and that they have retracted all such claims.

I know from personal use of these products the HP claim of 70 years with
pigment is now a 5 year claim.

With all of this being said, i will tell you that I personally use my HP 500
(dye sub) for most all (size permitting) fine art prints. and my HP 5000
strictly for use of projects that need protection from direct elements such as
outdoor use.

http://www.hp.com/sbso/product/suppl...tfastness.html

Paul Savidge

 
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Rafe B.
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      09-08-2003
On 07 Sep 2003 23:53:18 GMT, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) (Savidge4) wrote:


>In one sentence to say that you understand the relationship of paper to ink,
>and another to suggest that there is a list of paper producers to long to list
>here. That in itself is a contradiction in tems. in reality ALL of the
>successful print longevity testing has been done with same brand paper and
>inks. Again i will say that to suggest that the use of third party papers and
>or inks will produce the same results as same kind ink/paper combination is
>crazy.


<snip>

So you are suggesting that the ONLY lightfast combinations
are those officially sanctioned by HP or Henry Wilhelm,
or those consisting of paper and ink from the same brand?

Surely you can't be that naive.

Hey, listen, I'm glad you're happy with your HP. There
also happen to be quite a few professional photographers
using Epson wide format printers these days. I know
quite a few of them personally, and dozens more from
my travels in the news groups, listservs, etc.

Regardless of how you feel about your HP, there's
really no need to disparage other printers or other
ink/paper combinations.



rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
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