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Infrared to detect heating or cooling losses from houses & other buildings

 
 
Scott Coutts
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      08-18-2003
You're sure it's measuring temp differences rather than NIR reflectivity?

Ray wrote:

<snip>

> its little red IR source, does a pretty fair job of picking up a 98 degree F
> face and distinguishing it from an 80 degree shirt and 70 degree walls - I'm
> wondering about this... I haven't gone outside in the present 90 degree
> weather to check my own house for heat loss for obvious reasons...
>
> -- Ray
>
> "Michael Scarpitti" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) m...
>
>>"Ray" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message

>
> news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
>
>>>does anyone know if there are digital cameras that are especially useful

>>

> for
>
>>>getting images of either heating or cooling leaking from houses and

>>

> other
>
>>>buildings? from what I hear the rates for heating fuel and electric are
>>>heading to the stratosphere later this year and now might be a good time

>>

> to
>
>>>start plugging leaks...
>>>
>>>-- Ray

>>
>>Yes, these are special products that have (liquid-nitrogen?) cooled
>>sensors in them and are VERY expensive. Thousands of dollars.
>>
>>Basically you have somebody come out to your house and do the work.
>>You don't do this yourself. These are industrial machines. They are
>>used in many kinds of industries to measure temperatures of objects
>>remotely.

>
>
>


 
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Bart van der Wolf
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      08-18-2003

"Scott Coutts" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> You're sure it's measuring temp differences rather than NIR reflectivity?


You present it as a question, but it is a fact; the temperatures mentioned
are Far Infrared, so the Near Infrared the camera is picking up is reflected
light, not emitted.
It would probably (depending on the camera's sensor) take a temperature of
something like 600 Celsius (1112 F) or more to emit enough energy in the NIR
band to register.

Bart


 
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Don Stauffer
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-18-2003
Ferroelectric detectors are only one kind. Others are the bolometric
arrays, Pt. Si. CCD chips, and various long wave arrays, usually
HgCdTe. It is a holy grail to make a 2-D array of later, so most of
later are mechanically scanned linear arrays. These are what military
uses, although a few military systems for shorter range do use PtSi.
PtSi and HgCdTe MUST be cryo cooled, ferroelectric, pyroelectric, and
bolometer arrays do not HAVE to be, though they work better if they are
cooled.

FE and bolometer array sensors are in $10K range, PtSi cameras in $50K
range, HgCdTe sensors $100K on up.


And, to answer another question, yes these sensors do respond to changes
in IR emissivity (1-reflectance) changes, but most subjects of interest
have pretty high, relatively constant emissivity in far IR.

Ray wrote:
>
> what's needed is a sensor that'll work in the 3 ~ 12 micron emission
> range... ferroelectric bolometers is what I've seen them called, and
> supposedly these things are getting cheap enough to be put in ATM
> stanchions... if they're getting that cheap, manufactured in appreciable
> volume, we ought to begin seeing cameras using them get cheaper... I wonder,
> however, if we really need that... My Sony TRV730 camcorder, used without
> its little red IR source, does a pretty fair job of picking up a 98 degree F
> face and distinguishing it from an 80 degree shirt and 70 degree walls - I'm
> wondering about this... I haven't gone outside in the present 90 degree
> weather to check my own house for heat loss for obvious reasons...
>
> -- Ray
>
> "Michael Scarpitti" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) m...
> > "Ray" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message

> news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
> > > does anyone know if there are digital cameras that are especially useful

> for
> > > getting images of either heating or cooling leaking from houses and

> other
> > > buildings? from what I hear the rates for heating fuel and electric are
> > > heading to the stratosphere later this year and now might be a good time

> to
> > > start plugging leaks...
> > >
> > > -- Ray

> >
> > Yes, these are special products that have (liquid-nitrogen?) cooled
> > sensors in them and are VERY expensive. Thousands of dollars.
> >
> > Basically you have somebody come out to your house and do the work.
> > You don't do this yourself. These are industrial machines. They are
> > used in many kinds of industries to measure temperatures of objects
> > remotely.


--
Don Stauffer in Minnesota
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
webpage- http://www.usfamily.net/web/stauffer
 
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Ray
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-18-2003
boy, is there ever an opportunity here for the first folks to get affordable
IR gear... think about home safety/fire prevention... or troubleshooting
equipment... or home security... and probably scads of stuff I ain't even
aware of.... those fellers at MIT, soon's they get through fiddling with
reformable newsprint, could/should take this on (probably started on it
already) ....

-- Ray

"Jack Ferman" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> A friend told me not to sell my Olympus C2020 because it is one of the
> last digicams not to have IR filtering that newer digicams have. The idea
> was to dump IR in order to help take 'noise' out of the digitized photo.
>
> Does anyone know the official designation for the 'deep red' lens filters
> that are supposed to replicate the IR effect (deeper blue skys, etc). I
> saw some Tiffen R2 reds for 2 bucks at a tent sale last weekend, but by
> just looking it didn't seem the R2 is 'dark' enough.
>
> In the matter of NIR (near) and FIR (far), the nearness refers to how
> close the wavelength band is to the color red. Most references place the
> red limit at 7000 angstrom but some printed charts show a visibility out
> to around 7500 angstroms. Where do physicists place the wavelength limits
> to define near and far IR.



 
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Ray
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-19-2003
oh, that gave me a vision... hereabouts the houses are quite old (the core
room in my house is the remnant of an 1856 log cabin - square cut logs
pinned with wooden dowels - I found newspaper bits talking of Pres.
Buchanan) and 2, sometimes 3 story, w steep pitched roofs to slough the snow
off) ... I'd have to get myself a scissor-lift cherry-picker !!

--
Ray
(E-Mail Removed)
"Don Stauffer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> But they have been TRYING for about four decades. I used to be in the
> business myself. .... In a sense, YOU become
> the scanning mechanism. ...
>



 
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Don Stauffer
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-20-2003
There is a SLOPE to the curve. IF you put enough energy into the eye,
it can see quite a ways out. I was playing with an IR laser projector
one day and accidentily looked into system and saw .693 very clearly.
That is supposed to be beyond range, but if the curve is 20 or 30 db
down, and you shine a bright enough laser into your eye, you will see
it. Some people hit with 1.06 claim to have seen red light, though in
this case it was so powerful that they did suffer damage. Fortunately
in my case, I had no aftereffects.


Marvin Margoshes wrote:
>
> "Jack Ferman" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > A friend told me not to sell my Olympus C2020 because it is one of the
> > last digicams not to have IR filtering that newer digicams have. The idea
> > was to dump IR in order to help take 'noise' out of the digitized photo.
> >
> > Does anyone know the official designation for the 'deep red' lens filters
> > that are supposed to replicate the IR effect (deeper blue skys, etc). I
> > saw some Tiffen R2 reds for 2 bucks at a tent sale last weekend, but by
> > just looking it didn't seem the R2 is 'dark' enough.
> >
> > In the matter of NIR (near) and FIR (far), the nearness refers to how
> > close the wavelength band is to the color red. Most references place the
> > red limit at 7000 angstrom but some printed charts show a visibility out
> > to around 7500 angstroms. Where do physicists place the wavelength limits
> > to define near and far IR.

>
> Some people can see to longer wavelengths than others. Similarrly, some
> people can see further into the UV than others. It is probably due to a
> genetic difference in the receptor pigment. That kind of genetic difference
> is the cause of color blindness, by the way.
>
> As to the cutoff between visible and IR, there is nothing official as far as
> I know. I think of it as an overlap, with the boundary depending on how
> the spectrum is measured.


--
Don Stauffer in Minnesota
(E-Mail Removed)
webpage- http://www.usfamily.net/web/stauffer
 
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Jack Ferman
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-20-2003
If your 0.693 is 6930 angstrom, then you should have seen it. The
handbook arbitrary limit for red is 7000 angstrom.

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Don Stauffer
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> There is a SLOPE to the curve. IF you put enough energy into the eye,
> it can see quite a ways out. I was playing with an IR laser projector
> one day and accidentily looked into system and saw .693 very clearly.
> That is supposed to be beyond range, but if the curve is 20 or 30 db
> down, and you shine a bright enough laser into your eye, you will see
> it. Some people hit with 1.06 claim to have seen red light, though in
> this case it was so powerful that they did suffer damage. Fortunately
> in my case, I had no aftereffects.
>
>
> Marvin Margoshes wrote:
> >
> > "Jack Ferman" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > > A friend told me not to sell my Olympus C2020 because it is one of the
> > > last digicams not to have IR filtering that newer digicams have. The idea
> > > was to dump IR in order to help take 'noise' out of the digitized photo.
> > >
> > > Does anyone know the official designation for the 'deep red' lens filters
> > > that are supposed to replicate the IR effect (deeper blue skys, etc). I
> > > saw some Tiffen R2 reds for 2 bucks at a tent sale last weekend, but by
> > > just looking it didn't seem the R2 is 'dark' enough.
> > >
> > > In the matter of NIR (near) and FIR (far), the nearness refers to how
> > > close the wavelength band is to the color red. Most references place the
> > > red limit at 7000 angstrom but some printed charts show a visibility out
> > > to around 7500 angstroms. Where do physicists place the wavelength limits
> > > to define near and far IR.

> >
> > Some people can see to longer wavelengths than others. Similarrly, some
> > people can see further into the UV than others. It is probably due to a
> > genetic difference in the receptor pigment. That kind of genetic difference
> > is the cause of color blindness, by the way.
> >
> > As to the cutoff between visible and IR, there is nothing official as far as
> > I know. I think of it as an overlap, with the boundary depending on how
> > the spectrum is measured.

 
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