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OT: Your phone records are for sale

 
 
Vox Humana
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-07-2006
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/...privacy05.html
Your phone records are for sale

January 5, 2006

BY FRANK MAIN Crime Reporter

The Chicago Police Department is warning officers their cell phone records
are available to anyone -- for a price. Dozens of online services are
selling lists of cell phone calls, raising security concerns among law
enforcement and privacy experts.


Criminals can use such records to expose a government informant who
regularly calls a law enforcement official.

Suspicious spouses can see if their husband or wife is calling a certain
someone a bit too often.

And employers can check whether a worker is regularly calling a
psychologist -- or a competing company.

Some online services might be skirting the law to obtain these phone lists,
according to Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), who has called for legislation
to criminalize phone record theft and use.

In some cases, telephone company insiders secretly sell customers'
phone-call lists to online brokers, despite strict telephone company rules
against such deals, according to Schumer.

And some online brokers have used deception to get the lists from the phone
companies, he said.

"Though this problem is all too common, federal law is too narrow to include
this type of crime," Schumer said last year in a prepared statement.

The Chicago Police Department is looking into the sale of phone records, a
source said.

Late last month, the department sent a warning to officers about
Locatecell.com, which sells lists of calls made on cell phones and land
lines.

"Officers should be aware of this information when giving out their personal
cell phone numbers to the general public," the bulletin said. "Undercover
officers should also be aware of this information if they occasionally call
personal numbers such as home or the office, from their [undercover] ones."

Test got FBI's calls in 3 hours

To test the service, the FBI paid Locatecell.com $160 to buy the records for
an agent's cell phone and received the list within three hours, the police
bulletin said.

Representatives of Data Find Solutions Inc., the Tennessee-based operator of
Locatecell.com, could not be reached for comment.

Frank Bochte, a spokesman for the FBI in Chicago, said he was aware of the
Web site.

"Not only in Chicago, but nationwide, the FBI notified its field offices of
this potential threat to the security of our agents, and especially our
undercover agents," Bochte said. "We need to educate our personnel about the
dangers posed by individuals using this site and others like it. We are
stressing that they should be careful in their cellular use."

How well do the services work? The Chicago Sun-Times paid $110 to
Locatecell.com to purchase a one-month record of calls for this reporter's
company cell phone. It was as simple as e-mailing the telephone number to
the service along with a credit card number. The request was made Friday
after the service was closed for the New Year's holiday.

'Most powerful investigative tool'


On Tuesday, when it reopened, Locatecell.com e-mailed a list of 78 telephone
numbers this reporter called on his cell phone between Nov. 19 and Dec. 17.
The list included calls to law enforcement sources, story subjects and other
Sun-Times reporters and editors.

Ernie Rizzo, a Chicago private investigator, said he uses a similar cell
phone record service to conduct research for his clients. On Friday, for
instance, Rizzo said he ordered the cell phone records of a suburban police
chief whose wife suspects he is cheating on her.

"I would say the most powerful investigative tool right now is cell
records," Rizzo said. "I use it a couple times a week. A few hundred bucks a
week is well worth the money."

Only financial info protected?

In July, the Electronic Privacy Information Center filed a petition with the
Federal Communications Commission seeking an end to the sale of telephone
records.

"We're very concerned about Locatecell," said Chris Jay Hoofnagle, senior
counsel for the center. "This is the company that sold the phone records of
a Canadian official to a reporter 'no questions asked.' "

Schumer has called for legislation to criminalize the "stealing and selling"
of cell phone logs. He also urged the Federal Trade Commission to set up a
unit to stop it.

He said a common method for obtaining cell phone records is "pretexting,"
involving a data broker pretending to be a phone's owner and duping the
phone company into providing the information.

"Pretexting for financial data is illegal, but it does not include phone
records," Schumer said. "We already have protections for our financial
information. We ought to have it for the very personal information that can
be gleaned from telephone records."





 
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Joseph Dionne
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-08-2006
Vox Humana wrote:
> http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/...privacy05.html
> Your phone records are for sale
>
> January 5, 2006
>
> BY FRANK MAIN Crime Reporter
>
> The Chicago Police Department is warning officers their cell phone records
> are available to anyone -- for a price. Dozens of online services are
> selling lists of cell phone calls, raising security concerns among law
> enforcement and privacy experts.


Phone records have been for sale almost as long as home street addresses have
been bought and sold.

When one purchases a "public domain" identity to people can contact them, they
become "customers" and businesses suplement their income by sharing your
information with like or "value add" product vendors.

Where is the outrage that our home street address information is available to
all those junk mailers?


 
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The J-Man
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-08-2006
Joseph Dionne wrote:
> Vox Humana wrote:
>
>> http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/...privacy05.html
>> Your phone records are for sale
>>
>> January 5, 2006
>>
>> BY FRANK MAIN Crime Reporter
>>
>> The Chicago Police Department is warning officers their cell phone
>> records
>> are available to anyone -- for a price. Dozens of online services are
>> selling lists of cell phone calls, raising security concerns among law
>> enforcement and privacy experts.

>
>
> Phone records have been for sale almost as long as home street addresses
> have been bought and sold.
>
> When one purchases a "public domain" identity to people can contact
> them, they become "customers" and businesses suplement their income by
> sharing your information with like or "value add" product vendors.
>
> Where is the outrage that our home street address information is
> available to all those junk mailers?
>


I think the concern here is that people are actually selling call detail
reports for which numbers you have been talking to.

:J-man
 
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Vox Humana
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-08-2006

"Joseph Dionne" <> wrote in message
news:BUYvf.3626$ k.net...
> Vox Humana wrote:
> > http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/...privacy05.html
> > Your phone records are for sale
> >
> > January 5, 2006
> >
> > BY FRANK MAIN Crime Reporter
> >
> > The Chicago Police Department is warning officers their cell phone

records
> > are available to anyone -- for a price. Dozens of online services are
> > selling lists of cell phone calls, raising security concerns among law
> > enforcement and privacy experts.

>
> Phone records have been for sale almost as long as home street addresses

have
> been bought and sold.
>
> When one purchases a "public domain" identity to people can contact them,

they
> become "customers" and businesses suplement their income by sharing your
> information with like or "value add" product vendors.
>
> Where is the outrage that our home street address information is available

to
> all those junk mailers?


I agree that public domain records are fair game. The story however
detailed how any one of us can purchase a detailed record of a specific
person's calls. For instance, if you called me and I captured your number
on my caller ID, I could then spend $110 and find out who you called and who
called you for a specific month. (My VOIP provider doesn't honor anonymus
calls, so I get the number and usually a name when people think that they
have blocked that CNID information.) For an additional fee, I could also
find the duration of the calls. So it would be easy to tell if you were
having an affair, receiving infertility treatments, called an abortion
clinic or an aids treatment clinic. Maybe you work for me and I suspect
that you are interviewing for another job. Maybe it would be better for me
to fire you rather than let you linger on while arranging a job with a
competitor. The possibilities are endless.


 
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Joseph Dionne
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-08-2006
Vox Humana wrote:
> "Joseph Dionne" <> wrote in message
> news:BUYvf.3626$ k.net...
>
>>Vox Humana wrote:
>>
>>>http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/...privacy05.html
>>>Your phone records are for sale
>>>
>>>January 5, 2006
>>>
>>>BY FRANK MAIN Crime Reporter
>>>
>>>The Chicago Police Department is warning officers their cell phone

>
> records
>
>>>are available to anyone -- for a price. Dozens of online services are
>>>selling lists of cell phone calls, raising security concerns among law
>>>enforcement and privacy experts.

>>
>>Phone records have been for sale almost as long as home street addresses

>
> have
>
>>been bought and sold.
>>
>>When one purchases a "public domain" identity to people can contact them,

>
> they
>
>>become "customers" and businesses suplement their income by sharing your
>>information with like or "value add" product vendors.
>>
>>Where is the outrage that our home street address information is available

>
> to
>
>>all those junk mailers?

>
>
> I agree that public domain records are fair game. The story however
> detailed how any one of us can purchase a detailed record of a specific
> person's calls. For instance, if you called me and I captured your number
> on my caller ID, I could then spend $110 and find out who you called and who
> called you for a specific month. (My VOIP provider doesn't honor anonymus
> calls, so I get the number and usually a name when people think that they
> have blocked that CNID information.) For an additional fee, I could also
> find the duration of the calls. So it would be easy to tell if you were
> having an affair, receiving infertility treatments, called an abortion
> clinic or an aids treatment clinic. Maybe you work for me and I suspect
> that you are interviewing for another job. Maybe it would be better for me
> to fire you rather than let you linger on while arranging a job with a
> competitor. The possibilities are endless.
>
>


What you describe is the public domain, business collect publicly available
data, aggregate it and and offer it for sale for a price.

Just as all your activities outside your dwelling are "public domain" so to
you "expose" yourself when you make the effort to telephone a second party.
You make the choice to expose yourself when you picked up the phone and dialed
no one forced your actions.

However, call information has been readily available from the telcos for a fee,
using real time on line queries since the seventies when I first entered the
field of telephonic software application business. Within the first six of a
call, while my phone switches played "ring back" to your phone, I could get
how long you owned the phone number, whether you charged back on your phone
bill, a "basic" credit score, street address of the phones location -- LATA --
who prepares your phone bill and who is your LEC as well as other info.

All this was made possible by the ISDN system, and as you say, I would reject
calls with ANI was not presented. As you say, ANI is always available on all
calls, and hiding ANI is a service your telco provides for you.

Privacy is something that only exists when one withdraws from all modern forms
of convenience, It is a too edge sword, as consumers we want/demand
information on those that attempt to enter our world, yet at the same we want
our info kept secret. The two are in direct conflict, and I for one have no
answers as to what the middle ground is or should be.

I think most people want the Internet to be free of government controls, and
taxation, yet every time we venture into the www we leave our footprints all
over the place. Business rise to collect this information and sell their data
as well, mostly in "honest" fashion to drive our consumer based economies.
But, just like a fire arm can be use for harm, so to our publicly available
information.

Ethical behavior begins with the individual who says "this is wrong, and I
will have no part of it." Then we legislate the limits on the use of public
data, not try to create laws attempting to "guarantee" privacy.
 
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Ivor Jones
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-08-2006


"Joseph Dionne" <> wrote in message
news:nIcwf.3842$ ink.net

[snip]

> What you describe is the public domain, business collect
> publicly available data, aggregate it and and offer it
> for sale for a price.


No. The list of numbers I call is my business and nobody except the phone
company (for billing purposes) and the persons I call have any business
knowing it.

> Just as all your activities outside your dwelling are
> "public domain" so to you "expose" yourself when you make
> the effort to telephone a second party. You make the
> choice to expose yourself when you picked up the phone
> and dialed no one forced your actions.


No. See above. I do not stand on a hilltop and shout out the numbers I
phone. It is not anyone's business.

Ivor


 
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Vox Humana
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-08-2006

"Joseph Dionne" <> wrote in message
news:nIcwf.3842$ ink.net...
> Vox Humana wrote:
> > "Joseph Dionne" <> wrote in message
> > news:BUYvf.3626$ k.net...
> >
> >>Vox Humana wrote:
> >>
> >>>http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/...privacy05.html
> >>>Your phone records are for sale
> >>>
> >>>January 5, 2006
> >>>
> >>>BY FRANK MAIN Crime Reporter
> >>>
> >>>The Chicago Police Department is warning officers their cell phone

> >
> > records
> >
> >>>are available to anyone -- for a price. Dozens of online services are
> >>>selling lists of cell phone calls, raising security concerns among law
> >>>enforcement and privacy experts.
> >>
> >>Phone records have been for sale almost as long as home street addresses

> >
> > have
> >
> >>been bought and sold.
> >>
> >>When one purchases a "public domain" identity to people can contact

them,
> >
> > they
> >
> >>become "customers" and businesses suplement their income by sharing your
> >>information with like or "value add" product vendors.
> >>
> >>Where is the outrage that our home street address information is

available
> >
> > to
> >
> >>all those junk mailers?

> >
> >
> > I agree that public domain records are fair game. The story however
> > detailed how any one of us can purchase a detailed record of a specific
> > person's calls. For instance, if you called me and I captured your

number
> > on my caller ID, I could then spend $110 and find out who you called and

who
> > called you for a specific month. (My VOIP provider doesn't honor

anonymus
> > calls, so I get the number and usually a name when people think that

they
> > have blocked that CNID information.) For an additional fee, I could

also
> > find the duration of the calls. So it would be easy to tell if you were
> > having an affair, receiving infertility treatments, called an abortion
> > clinic or an aids treatment clinic. Maybe you work for me and I suspect
> > that you are interviewing for another job. Maybe it would be better for

me
> > to fire you rather than let you linger on while arranging a job with a
> > competitor. The possibilities are endless.
> >
> >

>
> What you describe is the public domain, business collect publicly

available
> data, aggregate it and and offer it for sale for a price.
>
> Just as all your activities outside your dwelling are "public domain" so

to
> you "expose" yourself when you make the effort to telephone a second

party.
> You make the choice to expose yourself when you picked up the phone and

dialed
> no one forced your actions.


Since I do all my banking outside my dwelling, using your argument all my
banking records would available to anyone for a fee. That's the issue here.
The records are available to ANYONE for a fee. I dobt that most people know
this. I didn't.


>
> However, call information has been readily available from the telcos for a

fee,
> using real time on line queries since the seventies when I first entered

the
> field of telephonic software application business. Within the first six

of a
> call, while my phone switches played "ring back" to your phone, I could

get
> how long you owned the phone number, whether you charged back on your

phone
> bill, a "basic" credit score, street address of the phones location --

LATA --
> who prepares your phone bill and who is your LEC as well as other info.



You can get a credit score from the phone company?





 
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Wolfgang S. Rupprecht
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-08-2006

> The records are available to ANYONE for a fee. I dobt that most people know
> this. I didn't.


I didn't know this either. I doubt that this privacy invasion will
survive the outcry that's going to happen.

All of this is going to put pressure on folks to use more peer-to-peer
calling methods and bypass any central service that can easily
aggregate all calling information. I've never used skype since there
is no open-source software for it, but from what I understand it would
be very difficult for some outside organization to gather CDR records
for the calls. Certainly the SIP world could, if needed, move to
something that offered similar privacy protection.

-wolfgang
--
Wolfgang S. Rupprecht http://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/
Direct SIP URL Dialing: http://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/phonedirectory.html
 
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Joseph Dionne
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-08-2006
Vox Humana wrote:
> "Joseph Dionne" <> wrote in message
> news:nIcwf.3842$ ink.net...
>
>>Vox Humana wrote:
>>
>>>"Joseph Dionne" <> wrote in message
>>>news:BUYvf.3626$ link.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Vox Humana wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/...privacy05.html
>>>>>Your phone records are for sale
>>>>>
>>>>>January 5, 2006
>>>>>
>>>>>BY FRANK MAIN Crime Reporter
>>>>>
>>>>>The Chicago Police Department is warning officers their cell phone
>>>
>>>records
>>>
>>>
>>>>>are available to anyone -- for a price. Dozens of online services are
>>>>>selling lists of cell phone calls, raising security concerns among law
>>>>>enforcement and privacy experts.
>>>>
>>>>Phone records have been for sale almost as long as home street addresses
>>>
>>>have
>>>
>>>
>>>>been bought and sold.
>>>>
>>>>When one purchases a "public domain" identity to people can contact

>
> them,
>
>>>they
>>>
>>>
>>>>become "customers" and businesses suplement their income by sharing your
>>>>information with like or "value add" product vendors.
>>>>
>>>>Where is the outrage that our home street address information is

>
> available
>
>>>to
>>>
>>>
>>>>all those junk mailers?
>>>
>>>
>>>I agree that public domain records are fair game. The story however
>>>detailed how any one of us can purchase a detailed record of a specific
>>>person's calls. For instance, if you called me and I captured your

>
> number
>
>>>on my caller ID, I could then spend $110 and find out who you called and

>
> who
>
>>>called you for a specific month. (My VOIP provider doesn't honor

>
> anonymus
>
>>>calls, so I get the number and usually a name when people think that

>
> they
>
>>>have blocked that CNID information.) For an additional fee, I could

>
> also
>
>>>find the duration of the calls. So it would be easy to tell if you were
>>>having an affair, receiving infertility treatments, called an abortion
>>>clinic or an aids treatment clinic. Maybe you work for me and I suspect
>>>that you are interviewing for another job. Maybe it would be better for

>
> me
>
>>>to fire you rather than let you linger on while arranging a job with a
>>>competitor. The possibilities are endless.
>>>
>>>

>>
>>What you describe is the public domain, business collect publicly

>
> available
>
>>data, aggregate it and and offer it for sale for a price.
>>
>>Just as all your activities outside your dwelling are "public domain" so

>
> to
>
>>you "expose" yourself when you make the effort to telephone a second

>
> party.
>
>>You make the choice to expose yourself when you picked up the phone and

>
> dialed
>
>>no one forced your actions.

>
>
> Since I do all my banking outside my dwelling, using your argument all my
> banking records would available to anyone for a fee. That's the issue here.
> The records are available to ANYONE for a fee. I dobt that most people know
> this. I didn't.
>
>


Actually, all your banking records are available, via credit rating
agencies. The big three agencies frequently compile lists and sell them
to smaller firms who then offer credit check services for any thing you
buy over time, i.e. credit.

However, because of the Great Depression and the banking legislation that
aims to prevent its repeat, i.e. FDIC, etc, banks are highly regulated and
legislated as to how and who can obtain their records. Unfortunately, our
laws loosen up the further your credit/banking history moves away from the
bank/credit company holding your accounts, and unscrupulous peoples can
get access. But, don't put your head in the sand in fright, laws are also
on the books that allow you to sue for damages anyone untowardly using your
financial information.

"We" can work to put an end to this practice, but then we would be also be
ending the credit lending industry, and our ability to buy more of the
things we want/need/desire on credit. "Trust me" will have little weight
whey you are "begging" for a loan from a creditor who can no longer get
an idea on how likely you are to repay the loan.

>
>>However, call information has been readily available from the telcos for a

>
> fee,
>
>>using real time on line queries since the seventies when I first entered

>
> the
>
>>field of telephonic software application business. Within the first six

>
> of a
>
>>call, while my phone switches played "ring back" to your phone, I could

>
> get
>
>>how long you owned the phone number, whether you charged back on your

>
> phone
>
>>bill, a "basic" credit score, street address of the phones location --

>
> LATA --
>
>>who prepares your phone bill and who is your LEC as well as other info.

>
>
>
> You can get a credit score from the phone company?
>
>
>
>
>


I did not say it was obtained from a phone company. You can deny this all
you want, but your information is out there now. The proverbial genie is
already out of the bottle.
 
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Joseph Dionne
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-08-2006
Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:
>>The records are available to ANYONE for a fee. I dobt that most people know
>>this. I didn't.

>
>
> I didn't know this either. I doubt that this privacy invasion will
> survive the outcry that's going to happen.
>
> All of this is going to put pressure on folks to use more peer-to-peer
> calling methods and bypass any central service that can easily
> aggregate all calling information.


Like two cans and a string? Even peer to peer has a "man in the middle."
 
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