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Exportability of EDA industry from North America?

 
 
EDA wannabe
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      12-16-2004
Some colleagues and I were discussing the situation with the high tech
industry, with jobs moving out of North America. This has hit circuit
designers hard, especially those in digital. Can EDA tool development
be expected to follow suit, is has it already happened? If not, what
are the factors that differentiate it from design work to make it less
exportable? Comments are also welcome for automatation of methodologies
for programmable system-on-chip e.g. reconfigurable processor arrays.

 
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JJ
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      12-16-2004
EDA wannabe wrote:
> Some colleagues and I were discussing the situation with the high

tech
> industry, with jobs moving out of North America. This has hit

circuit
> designers hard, especially those in digital. Can EDA tool

development
> be expected to follow suit, is has it already happened? If not, what
> are the factors that differentiate it from design work to make it

less
> exportable? Comments are also welcome for automatation of

methodologies
> for programmable system-on-chip e.g. reconfigurable processor arrays.


Sorry bud but its already gone offshore big time, Romania, Russia,
India all have EDA sites now, read EET to see who is doing the
shipping. I long lost interest in EDA except to create own stuff. The
EDA biz was always less profitable than the customer base so its no
surprise.

regards

johnjakson_usa_com

 
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Paul Burke
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      12-16-2004
EDA wannabe wrote:
> Can EDA tool development
> be expected to follow suit, is has it already happened?


EdWin, the nightmarish Swedish PCB CAD system, has been "developed" in
India for several years now.

Paul Burke
 
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Phil Tomson
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      12-16-2004
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
EDA wannabe <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Some colleagues and I were discussing the situation with the high tech
>industry, with jobs moving out of North America. This has hit circuit
>designers hard, especially those in digital. Can EDA tool development
>be expected to follow suit, is has it already happened?


It's already happening to a large degree. Most of the big EDA companies
have India/China SW R&D offices.

> If not, what
>are the factors that differentiate it from design work to make it less
>exportable?


It's just as easy to export EDA development jobs as it is to export
circuit design. Might be easier since software developers are readily
available.

Probably the best bet if you want an EDA job in the US is to get a PhD,
but even some of the highlevel research is starting to move over.


It's not a pretty picture. The standard of living will likely have to
fall a good bit in the US before you see these kinds of jobs move back.

Phil


 
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John Woodgate
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      12-16-2004
I read in sci.electronics.design that Phil Tomson <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote (in <(E-Mail Removed)>) about 'Exportability of EDA
industry from North America?', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:

>It's not a pretty picture. The standard of living will likely have to
>fall a good bit in the US before you see these kinds of jobs move back.


Or the standard of living elsewhere will have to rise.

The removal of WTO quotas for clothing exports from developing countries
is said to spell trouble for ... - no, Bangladesh! Apparently India and
China can undercut the Bangla manufacturers.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
 
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Rudolf Usselmann
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      12-16-2004
EDA wannabe wrote:

> Some colleagues and I were discussing the situation with the high tech
> industry, with jobs moving out of North America. This has hit circuit
> designers hard, especially those in digital. Can EDA tool development
> be expected to follow suit, is has it already happened? If not, what
> are the factors that differentiate it from design work to make it less
> exportable? Comments are also welcome for automatation of methodologies
> for programmable system-on-chip e.g. reconfigurable processor arrays.



This has been happening for quite some time now. At first
(during the "good times") companies have been moving jobs
to India and China because there where not enough engineers
available in the US. Than during the recession, companies
have been moving/continuing to use India and China because
they *appear* to be cheaper than local talent.

And I think it is very important to analyze the cost "savings"
in greater detail. The truth is that engineers in these
developing countries, are less experienced and do not have the
needed background of pulling through large projects. As smart
as they may be, doing a large project and coordinating some 100
engineers is a tough task. My personal experience with products
coming from the developing/low cost countries, is that the quality
of workmanship is just not there YET. Many of the "savings" are
getting killed because things have to be rewritten/redesigned/fixed/
start over from scratch. Typically the decisions of outsourcing
is done by upper management without any feedback from any senior
engineers in the US. Managers and engineers are hired in the
developing countries with the expectation that they will deliver
good of same quality as their US counterparts. So far in my opinion
this has not happened (YET !).

I believe that in the next 5-10 years we will see the experience
level increase and the quality of products to start reaching the
same levels as what we would expect form US based engineers. At
the same time, I believe, these engineers expectations will be
raising as well. As these engineers become more senior and
experienced, many of them will have the opportunity to go to the
US and get a "high-paying" job. As such the "cost advantage"
together with the lower expectation in the US (which will be in
my opinion a natural development) will become a wash.

Overall I believe we will see a few swings back and forth of this
outsourcing "problem" the US is facing. After a while this will
become irrelevant as all of the developing countries will become
also leaders on the same level as the US. I think if the US does
not start attracting new internal engineers by providing more
incentives for students, it, as a whole country, will eventually
fall behind in the technology sector, which will be led by Japan,
China and India (in this order - I believe). I believe this fall
back, can already be observed in the automotive industry ...
And that, will be by far a much larger problem everybody in the US
will face than the outsourcing you see today.

Best Regards,
rudi
================================================== ===========
Rudolf Usselmann, ASICS World Services, http://www.asics.ws
Your Partner for IP Cores, Design, Verification and Synthesis
 
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Phil Tomson
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      12-16-2004
In article <aqUz8KBGOYwBFw$(E-Mail Removed)>,
John Woodgate <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>I read in sci.electronics.design that Phil Tomson <(E-Mail Removed)>
>wrote (in <(E-Mail Removed)>) about 'Exportability of EDA
>industry from North America?', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:
>
>>It's not a pretty picture. The standard of living will likely have to
>>fall a good bit in the US before you see these kinds of jobs move back.

>
>Or the standard of living elsewhere will have to rise.


True. We'll have to meet in the middle somewhere. This is partly why the
dollar is falling (also because of the national debt, of course). The
fact remains that the US standard of living will have to fall in this kind
of a free-trade system. It's not going to be pretty for the US standard
of living to fall that way - it hasn't really happened before.

Phil
 
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EDA wannabe
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      12-16-2004
Phil Tomson wrote:
>
> Probably the best bet if you want an EDA job in the US is to get a PhD,
> but even some of the highlevel research is starting to move over.
>
> It's not a pretty picture. The standard of living will likely have to
> fall a good bit in the US before you see these kinds of jobs move back.



I understand that there must be some level of parity before the jobs start
flowing back. Regarding the comment about a Ph.D., I am actually speaking
about the outlook for someone completing an advance degree. Typically,
though, the relevance of even R&D tends to follow the prevalence of the
associated application, so if the industry practice moves elsewhere, the
relevance and value of the R&D is likely to follow (I surmise). So I'm
wondering how much the R&D in this area will likely be eroded in North
America.

As well, the angle I'm interested in is that of combinatoric algorithms in
mapping applications to prefabricated systems-on-chip, or configurable
platforms. That might be nonstandard enough to maintain a presence in
North America. It all depends on the experience and grounding of
alternative, more economic countries in this knowledge area. Especially in
terms of university activity.

I would also imagine that the more niche-like the area, the less attractive
it is for developing countries. It seems like the road to development
typically tries to capitalize on large anticipated markets for a particular
skill set or technology. I wonder how much this will protect against
erosion of R&D in North America. Of course, any opinions will necessarily
be highly speculative, but it would be interesting to hear rationales for
them.

Aside from the doom and gloom of predicting the potential decline of an
industry and area of R&D, I wonder about the likely challenges in transferring
the associated experience into other areas. Combinatoric problems are a
very general label, and I'm sure there is much crucial, domain-specific knowledge
to make such a skill set valuable.

 
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Phil Tomson
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      12-17-2004
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
EDA wannabe <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>Aside from the doom and gloom of predicting the potential decline of an
>industry and area of R&D, I wonder about the likely challenges in transferring
>the associated experience into other areas. Combinatoric problems are a
>very general label, and I'm sure there is much crucial, domain-specific
>knowledge
>to make such a skill set valuable.


I am beginning to think along these lines as well. Areas like datamining
or bioinformatics will likely dwarf EDA in terms of revenue (and thus
more jobs will be available in those areas). It might be
better to think of Google instead of [Synopsys|Mentor|Cadence|etc] as a
potential employer. I also am a grad student (with a lot of years of
'real-world' experience) and whereas I was aiming toward EDA in my
studies, now I'm starting to think about branching out into a different
area that might be growing faster... but I'm still very interested in EDA.

Phil

 
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Mike Treseler
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      12-17-2004
Phil Tomson wrote:

> I also am a grad student (with a lot of years of
> 'real-world' experience) and whereas I was aiming toward EDA in my
> studies, now I'm starting to think about branching out into a different
> area that might be growing faster... but I'm still very interested in EDA.


Then stick with EDA.
There is a very good chance that your future
job will not be directly related to your
course of study in any case.
The important thing is to enjoy what you are doing.

-- Mike Treseler
 
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