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Trivial question - Visual C# .Net vs Visual Studio .Net

 
 
Jon Skeet [C# MVP]
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      11-04-2003
Alvin Bruney <vapordan_spam_me_not@hotmail_no_spamhotmail.com > wrote:
> > I've just had a look at the front page. It's *really* messy HTML (as
> > office tends to produce). Someone with fairly basic HTML and maybe CSS
> > skilils could have written the same page in a way which took a lot less
> > bandwidth and was more easily maintainable. This is nothing you've done
> > wrong in Office, by the way - it just doesn't create nice HTML.

>
> Yes you have a very good point there. very good indeed. best thing i heard
> all week. It's messy. Hell, it scared me and then i blamed it on HTML.
> The bandwidth point is good in a class room but it's pointless in a
> practical world. There's dsl and cable and satellite. These things are
> non-issues. But I suppose it's still an academic point and i'll give it to
> you.


Yes, some people have DSL and cable. Are you sure that *all* your
customers do? Bandwidth is still very important in the real world.

> > dial-up connection, when it really, really didn't have to - you've just
> > lost users.


> It's time to get dsl, is what i say to them. if all you can afford is dial
> up, then you aren't part of my target audience.


There are many places in the UK (and the rest of the world, I'm sure)
where people can't get broadband for various reasons. Many of them are
easily able to afford broadband, but it's just not available to them.
Why alienate them?

> > That's not the fault of the extra knowledge,
> > it's the fault of the person abusing that knowledge.


> well said. it's abuse of knowledge and i need to be careful here with what i
> say but it drives me up a wall and straight to the toilet to puke when i see
> developers using and swearing by primitive tools all because they 'own the
> code'.


That's a problem with the developers, not the knowledge though - and
that's why I said you had "bad apples" in your team.

> That's using knowledge in the reverse. Its rather obvious now that i
> have issues with this because i keep having to fight with 'developers' about
> going the more productive way. it's not right. and i've largely given up. i
> let them do what they want to do and have late projects. I swear i am
> telling the truth when this developer decides to build a button control
> using GDI instead of dragging and dropping a button on a form. I'm not
> making this up. It probably doesn't happen in your world, but it's rotten
> here. and you need to be sympathetic to it.


I'm sympathetic to it, but as I said before, it's a mistake to throw
the baby out with the bathwater. Creating your own control is foolish,
but I wouldn't have particularly blamed him if he'd wanted to create
the code himself rather than get VS.NET to do it for him. I find I get
a much better degree of control *and* a much better sense of
understanding the app when I write the GUI part myself.

(In Java, where you pretty much always use a layout manager, it also
means you don't get lulled into a false sense of security.
Unfortunately .NET doesn't currently have a very rich layout engine -
I'm hoping this will change with Whidbey.)

--
Jon Skeet - <(E-Mail Removed)>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
 
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Ed Courtenay
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-04-2003

"Alvin Bruney" <vapordan_spam_me_not@hotmail_no_spamhotmail.com > wrote in
message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > It's still producing HTML. If you have no idea of what HTML is capable
> > of, you're at a disadvantage to those who *do* know what it can do.

>
> That's the point I am making, you gain no advantages. Ok, so they know

HTML
> and I don't. Big deal. If you are still coding HTML you are wasting your
> time.


So if I'm writing XSLT transforms from XML to (X)HTML for rendering purposes
I'm wasting my time am I? How would I even begin to be able to do this
effectively if I had only a rudimentary knowledge of HTML? A deep knowledge
of HTML has been an *advantage* not the other way around.


 
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Ed Courtenay
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-04-2003

"Alvin Bruney" <vapordan_spam_me_not@hotmail_no_spamhotmail.com > wrote in
message news:%(E-Mail Removed)...
> > I've just had a look at the front page. It's *really* messy HTML (as
> > office tends to produce). Someone with fairly basic HTML and maybe CSS
> > skilils could have written the same page in a way which took a lot less
> > bandwidth and was more easily maintainable. This is nothing you've done
> > wrong in Office, by the way - it just doesn't create nice HTML.

>
> Yes you have a very good point there. very good indeed. best thing i heard
> all week. It's messy. Hell, it scared me and then i blamed it on HTML.
> The bandwidth point is good in a class room but it's pointless in a
> practical world. There's dsl and cable and satellite. These things are
> non-issues. But I suppose it's still an academic point and i'll give it to
> you.


Hardly, the vast majority of internet users are still accessing via 56k
dial-up modems. It's a *very* practical issue.


 
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Chris Tacke, eMVP
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-04-2003
> certainly not. you never have to muck with wizard code most of the time so
> that kills the question of maintainability.


Sorry to be argumentative, but Studio's wizard-generated code for Form
loading is about 60% slower than hand-coding if you're using the CF.

In Studio 6, the ATL wizard puts in several known bugs that must be fixed by
hand (it may be fixed in the new versions, but should one just assume so
without checking?)

I'm sure there are other examples as well. Trusting that a Wizard generates
good code can lead to maintenace problems, performance problems and/or bugs.
Generate a few Excel VBA macros from the recorder and you'll get a good idea
as to why wizards are far from magic.




 
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Alvin Bruney
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-04-2003
> >you never have to muck with wizard code most of the time
most of the time is the operative word here. you are talking about a small
portion of time when you actually have to. IMO


--


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"Chris Tacke, eMVP" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:#(E-Mail Removed)...
> > certainly not. you never have to muck with wizard code most of the time

so
> > that kills the question of maintainability.

>
> Sorry to be argumentative, but Studio's wizard-generated code for Form
> loading is about 60% slower than hand-coding if you're using the CF.
>
> In Studio 6, the ATL wizard puts in several known bugs that must be fixed

by
> hand (it may be fixed in the new versions, but should one just assume so
> without checking?)
>
> I'm sure there are other examples as well. Trusting that a Wizard

generates
> good code can lead to maintenace problems, performance problems and/or

bugs.
> Generate a few Excel VBA macros from the recorder and you'll get a good

idea
> as to why wizards are far from magic.
>
>
>
>



 
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Alvin Bruney
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-04-2003
> Hardly, the vast majority of internet users are still accessing via 56k
> dial-up modems. It's a *very* practical issue.

not where i live. where did you pull that from anyway

--


-----------
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Get it here: www.networkip.net/tidbits
"Ed Courtenay" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "Alvin Bruney" <vapordan_spam_me_not@hotmail_no_spamhotmail.com > wrote in
> message news:%(E-Mail Removed)...
> > > I've just had a look at the front page. It's *really* messy HTML (as
> > > office tends to produce). Someone with fairly basic HTML and maybe CSS
> > > skilils could have written the same page in a way which took a lot

less
> > > bandwidth and was more easily maintainable. This is nothing you've

done
> > > wrong in Office, by the way - it just doesn't create nice HTML.

> >
> > Yes you have a very good point there. very good indeed. best thing i

heard
> > all week. It's messy. Hell, it scared me and then i blamed it on HTML.


> > The bandwidth point is good in a class room but it's pointless in a
> > practical world. There's dsl and cable and satellite. These things are
> > non-issues. But I suppose it's still an academic point and i'll give it

to
> > you.

>
> Hardly, the vast majority of internet users are still accessing via 56k
> dial-up modems. It's a *very* practical issue.
>
>



 
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Alvin Bruney
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-04-2003
> So if I'm writing XSLT transforms from XML to (X)HTML for rendering
purposes
> I'm wasting my time am I? How would I even begin to be able to do this
> effectively if I had only a rudimentary knowledge of HTML? A deep

knowledge
> of HTML has been an *advantage* not the other way around.


I haven't written transforms, that is outside of the scope of my knowledge.
If it helps you there, fine. I'll take your word for it
--


-----------
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"Ed Courtenay" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "Alvin Bruney" <vapordan_spam_me_not@hotmail_no_spamhotmail.com > wrote in
> message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > > It's still producing HTML. If you have no idea of what HTML is capable
> > > of, you're at a disadvantage to those who *do* know what it can do.

> >
> > That's the point I am making, you gain no advantages. Ok, so they know

> HTML
> > and I don't. Big deal. If you are still coding HTML you are wasting your
> > time.

>
> So if I'm writing XSLT transforms from XML to (X)HTML for rendering

purposes
> I'm wasting my time am I? How would I even begin to be able to do this
> effectively if I had only a rudimentary knowledge of HTML? A deep

knowledge
> of HTML has been an *advantage* not the other way around.
>
>



 
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John Tobler
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-05-2003
> That's not the fault of the extra knowledge,
> > it's the fault of the person abusing that knowledge.


OK, guys, I'll play moderator here, since I kind of started this thing.
Please note that you saved me a lot of writing to clarify some of the
underlying issues. Now, I have gone back and edited my little article a bit
and you can see my changes at

http://weblogs.asp.net/jtobler/posts/35600.aspx

Note, particularly:

Context: we are discussing the needs of someone who wants to learn .NET
programming.

and

Warning! When you are behind on a project with a hard deadline, forget
all of this nonsense
and make your company buy Visual Studio.NET for you.

I know that one of you has a perceived serious management problem. This
article is not about that. This article has nothing directly to do with you
or your problem. Some people will never be efficient or effective software
engineers either with or without an IDE.

There are cookbook engineers and the ones who figure out why the bridge fell
down when a cookbook engineer misused a formula.

There are code crankers and those who clean up after them; they are
different breeds of software engineer, different sorts of being, and both
kinds have value. There are software architects and software construction
workers; the architects do not have to be the king of the hammer and the
construction workers do not necessarily need a deep understanding of CLR
internals.

Please remember, this article was directed toward someone who wants to
*learn* .NET programming. It is really about a lot of very cool free tools.

Thanks for the feedback!

CSharpener




 
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Alvin Bruney
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-05-2003
Very good. very good indeed. That rewrite is much better.

> I know that one of you has a perceived serious management problem

*pointing to skeet*


> they are
> different breeds of software engineer, different sorts of being, and both
> kinds have value.


Thats an important point. In all this bickering we forgot this. I certainly
did. After the day was over, I find I've softened up a bit about my hard
line stance. I do tend to see only black and white, color is for whimps.
--


-----------
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"John Tobler" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > That's not the fault of the extra knowledge,
> > > it's the fault of the person abusing that knowledge.

>
> OK, guys, I'll play moderator here, since I kind of started this thing.
> Please note that you saved me a lot of writing to clarify some of the
> underlying issues. Now, I have gone back and edited my little article a

bit
> and you can see my changes at
>
> http://weblogs.asp.net/jtobler/posts/35600.aspx
>
> Note, particularly:
>
> Context: we are discussing the needs of someone who wants to learn

..NET
> programming.
>
> and
>
> Warning! When you are behind on a project with a hard deadline,

forget
> all of this nonsense
> and make your company buy Visual Studio.NET for you.
>
> I know that one of you has a perceived serious management problem. This
> article is not about that. This article has nothing directly to do with

you
> or your problem. Some people will never be efficient or effective

software
> engineers either with or without an IDE.
>
> There are cookbook engineers and the ones who figure out why the bridge

fell
> down when a cookbook engineer misused a formula.
>
> There are code crankers and those who clean up after them; they are
> different breeds of software engineer, different sorts of being, and both
> kinds have value. There are software architects and software construction
> workers; the architects do not have to be the king of the hammer and the
> construction workers do not necessarily need a deep understanding of CLR
> internals.
>
> Please remember, this article was directed toward someone who wants to
> *learn* .NET programming. It is really about a lot of very cool free

tools.
>
> Thanks for the feedback!
>
> CSharpener
>
>
>
>



 
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Ed Courtenay
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-05-2003

You could start by having a look at:
http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/0301.html


"Alvin Bruney" <vapordan_spam_me_not@hotmail_no_spamhotmail.com > wrote in
message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > Hardly, the vast majority of internet users are still accessing via 56k
> > dial-up modems. It's a *very* practical issue.

> not where i live. where did you pull that from anyway
>
> --
>
>
> -----------
> Got TidBits?
> Get it here: www.networkip.net/tidbits
> "Ed Courtenay" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> >
> > "Alvin Bruney" <vapordan_spam_me_not@hotmail_no_spamhotmail.com > wrote

in
> > message news:%(E-Mail Removed)...
> > > > I've just had a look at the front page. It's *really* messy HTML (as
> > > > office tends to produce). Someone with fairly basic HTML and maybe

CSS
> > > > skilils could have written the same page in a way which took a lot

> less
> > > > bandwidth and was more easily maintainable. This is nothing you've

> done
> > > > wrong in Office, by the way - it just doesn't create nice HTML.
> > >
> > > Yes you have a very good point there. very good indeed. best thing i

> heard
> > > all week. It's messy. Hell, it scared me and then i blamed it on HTML.

>
> > > The bandwidth point is good in a class room but it's pointless in a
> > > practical world. There's dsl and cable and satellite. These things are
> > > non-issues. But I suppose it's still an academic point and i'll give

it
> to
> > > you.

> >
> > Hardly, the vast majority of internet users are still accessing via 56k
> > dial-up modems. It's a *very* practical issue.
> >
> >

>
>



 
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