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Re: round two: XML vs DBMS

 
 
arachno
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-23-2003
Why everyone so limited down to SQL only. Guys, what about native XML
database servers. Today no more reason to stuck with SQL DBs...


"Berislav Lopac" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:bfk7m9$tk6$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Imagine, for example, that you run a bank, and the bank's Web site

displays
> the bank's exchange rates for various currencies. No sweat here -- to do
> that, you probably need a very simple SQL which will extract the current
> list from the banks DB and a simple program which formats the data as a
> pretty HTML table. Now, a financial Web portal approaches you asking you

to
> allow them to display your exchange rates. You whole-heartedly agree --

but
> your HTML is completely unsuitable for their design, and you can't ask

them
> to simply include the page you produce.
>



 
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Mirch Masala
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      07-23-2003
"arachno" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:bfl5u5$g3acc$(E-Mail Removed)-berlin.de...
> Why everyone so limited down to SQL only. Guys, what about native XML
> database servers. Today no more reason to stuck with SQL DBs...


Hmm... having been through the arguments about Object Databases and
SQL/Relational, I see much the same with Native XML and SQL/Relational all
over again ...

--
Akmal B. Chaudhri
Editor, Special Projects (Eclipse, Web Services)
IBM developerWorks < http://www.ibm.com/developerWorks/ >
XML Data Management, AW, 2003 <
http://www.awprofessional.com/titles/0201844524/ >
XML Database Symposium, VLDB 2003 < http://www.lirmm.fr/~bella/XSym/ >


 
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Christopher Browne
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      07-24-2003
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when "arachno" <(E-Mail Removed)> would write:
> Why everyone so limited down to SQL only. Guys, what about native
> XML database servers. Today no more reason to stuck with SQL DBs...


"XML" is a format used for _serializing documents_, not for providing
_random access_ to data.

The database systems that are specifically XML-oriented don't use
"native XML;" they use some private storage scheme that does NOT
involve XML.

For instance, the SleepyCat XML system doesn't store data as "native
XML," but rather stores XML documents in (generally) a Sleepycat DB
B-tree.
--
output = ("cbbrowne" "@" "ntlug.org")
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/xml.html
Would-be National Mottos:
Switzerland: "You wouldn't hit a country that's neutral, would you?"
 
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Dan Bolser
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      08-05-2003

Can you expand?

Is there an XML-SQL?
How are the databases indexed?
How do I put my flat files into
such a DB?

Cheers,

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, arachno wrote:

> Why everyone so limited down to SQL only. Guys, what about native XML
> database servers. Today no more reason to stuck with SQL DBs...
>
>
> "Berislav Lopac" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:bfk7m9$tk6$(E-Mail Removed)...
> > Imagine, for example, that you run a bank, and the bank's Web site

> displays
> > the bank's exchange rates for various currencies. No sweat here -- to do
> > that, you probably need a very simple SQL which will extract the current
> > list from the banks DB and a simple program which formats the data as a
> > pretty HTML table. Now, a financial Web portal approaches you asking you

> to
> > allow them to display your exchange rates. You whole-heartedly agree --

> but
> > your HTML is completely unsuitable for their design, and you can't ask

> them
> > to simply include the page you produce.
> >

>
>
>


 
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Rob Tweed
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      08-06-2003
Native XML databases are usually not based on the relational database
model - the old hierarchical databases tend to come in to their own
for the native storage of XML.

One of the ideal ways to store XML in a database is in its XML DOM
form, and use the DOM APIs as the means of manipulating the documents.

Our product, eXtc (www.mgateway.com), is an example of a persistent
DOM model. Interestingly, although we make use of the Cache'
database's underlying hierarchical data structures, we can make use of
Cache's object and relational technology, so you can use their SQL to
query across documents. You can also use eXtc to provide a Native XML
Database (NXD) environment, yet also use Cache's as an object and/or
relational database in parallel for other data. This hybrid
NXD/conventional DBMS environment is pretty unusual.

DOMs are indexed internally within the data structures we use to store
the DOM information.

Getting an XML flat file in is the process of parsing, which results
in a fully parsed persistent DOM. The XML file needs to be properly
structured and optionally conform to a DTD or schema, otherwise it's
rejected during parsing. Alternatively you can build DOMs
programmatically from scratch from within the Cache environment, using
the DOM API methods.

The nice thing about the DOM is that it provides a single object model
and a single set of APIs that allow you to store and manipulate any
XML document of any sort. We're getting a lot of interest now in the
role of our product as the basis of a pure XML-based digital asset
management platform.

So the notion of XML as simply a data transfer description language
is, IMHO, somewhat limited (though this is, of course, one of its
primary roles). The fact that many file and document types, and
business data sets are being defined in XML brings interesting new
opportunities when you can store and manage XML DOMs in a persistent
fashion.

Rob

On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:12:34 +0100, Dan Bolser
<(E-Mail Removed)-dunn.cam.ac.uk> wrote:

>
>Can you expand?
>
>Is there an XML-SQL?
>How are the databases indexed?
>How do I put my flat files into
>such a DB?
>
>Cheers,
>
>On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, arachno wrote:
>
>> Why everyone so limited down to SQL only. Guys, what about native XML
>> database servers. Today no more reason to stuck with SQL DBs...
>>
>>
>> "Berislav Lopac" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:bfk7m9$tk6$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> > Imagine, for example, that you run a bank, and the bank's Web site

>> displays
>> > the bank's exchange rates for various currencies. No sweat here -- to do
>> > that, you probably need a very simple SQL which will extract the current
>> > list from the banks DB and a simple program which formats the data as a
>> > pretty HTML table. Now, a financial Web portal approaches you asking you

>> to
>> > allow them to display your exchange rates. You whole-heartedly agree --

>> but
>> > your HTML is completely unsuitable for their design, and you can't ask

>> them
>> > to simply include the page you produce.
>> >

>>
>>
>>


---
Rob Tweed
M/Gateway Developments Ltd

Global DOMination with eXtc : http://www.mgateway.tzo.com
---
 
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Mirch Masala
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Posts: n/a
 
      08-06-2003
"Dan Bolser" <(E-Mail Removed)-dunn.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news(E-Mail Removed)-dunn.cam.ac.uk...
>
> Can you expand?
>
> Is there an XML-SQL?
> How are the databases indexed?
> How do I put my flat files into
> such a DB?
>
> Cheers,
>


Have a dig around Bourret's site:

http://www.rpbourret.com/xml/

See the book I helped edit:

http://www.awprofessional.com/titles/0201844524/

Which covers:

o Tamino's XML storage, indexing, querying, and data access features
o The features and APIs of open source eXist
o Berkeley DB XML's ability to store XML documents natively
o IBM's DB2 Universal Database and its support for XML applications
o Xperanto's method of addressing information integration requirements
o Oracle's XMLType for managing document centric XML documents
o Microsoft SQL Server 2000's support for exporting and importing XML data
o A generic architecture for storing XML documents in a relational database
o X007, XMach-1, XMark, and other benchmarks for evaluating XML database
performance

There are also some good workshop proceedings that cover research, e.g.

Z. Bellahsene, A.B. Chaudhri, E. Rahm, M. Rys and R. Unland (eds.) (2003)
XML database symposium. Lecture Notes in Computer Science, 2824 (Berlin:
Springer-Verlag) To appear.
http://www.lirmm.fr/~bella/XSym/

A.B. Chaudhri, M. Jeckle, E. Rahm and R. Unland (eds.) (2003) Web, web
services and database systems. Lecture Notes in Computer Science, 2593
(Berlin: Springer-Verlag)
http://link.springer.de/link/service...tocs/t2593.htm

S. Bressan, A.B. Chaudhri, M.L. Lee, J.X. Yu and Z. Lacroix (eds.) (2003)
Efficiency and effectiveness of XML tools and techniques and data
integration over the web. Lecture Notes in Computer Science, 2590 (Berlin:
Springer-Verlag)
http://link.springer.de/link/service...tocs/t2590.htm

A.B. Chaudhri, R. Unland, C. Djeraba and W. Lindner (eds.) (2002) XML-based
data management and multimedia engineering - EDBT 2002 workshops. Lecture
Notes in Computer Science, 2490 (Berlin: Springer-Verlag)

I notice that your email address is Cambridge University. You should have no
problems getting the LNCS through your library.

HTH

akmal chaudhri


 
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