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Which browser to write for??

 
 
Bill
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Posts: n/a
 
      04-21-2006
I'm working on learning html/css/java etc so I can maintain a church website
and am currently rewriting said site to use css instead of tables for
formating. After getting a good chunk of the way through the rewrite I
decided to try viewing the site in other browsers, Netscape, mozilla and
Opera, to see how well the would handle a site designed for IE 6. Of course
there are differences so I was looking into detecting different browsers so
I could add in css sheets to fix individual browser problems. Here's the
kicker, should I be designing the default page for IE 6 or something else?
What I mean is do I make a page that looks good in IE 6 and fix it for the
other browsers or do I use something else and fix the page for IE 6 quirks
and bugs?? Which browser is more Standards Complient? I figure that I'd be
better off getting as close to Complient as possible and adding fixes for IE
6 but I'm not sure WHICH browser is the closest. Any suggestions??

Bill


 
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mbstevens
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      04-21-2006
Bill wrote:
> I'm working on learning html/css/java etc so I can maintain a church website
> and am currently rewriting said site to use css instead of tables for
> formating. After getting a good chunk of the way through the rewrite I
> decided to try viewing the site in other browsers, Netscape, mozilla and
> Opera, to see how well the would handle a site designed for IE 6. Of course
> there are differences so I was looking into detecting different browsers so
> I could add in css sheets to fix individual browser problems. Here's the
> kicker, should I be designing the default page for IE 6 or something else?
> What I mean is do I make a page that looks good in IE 6 and fix it for the
> other browsers or do I use something else and fix the page for IE 6 quirks
> and bugs?? Which browser is more Standards Complient? I figure that I'd be
> better off getting as close to Complient as possible and adding fixes for IE
> 6 but I'm not sure WHICH browser is the closest. Any suggestions??
>
> Bill
>
>

If you're doing standards markup and CSS that is so critical that it
doesn't look good in _most_ browsers, then you are probably trying to
put too much on the page, or are trying to do visual things that
standard markup does not do well. The first thing to try is
spreading the information out to more pages while making each page
simpler in ways that it does not have to look exactly the same across
browsers.

If you find yourself trying to detect browsers, you're doing something
wrong. It does make sense, if you insist, to detect _capabilities_
on occasion. But you can easily write pages that don't require this,
and this is what you should shoot for at first.
--
mbstevens
http://www.mbstevens.com/


 
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David Dorward
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      04-21-2006
Bill wrote:

> course there are differences so I was looking into detecting different
> browsers so I could add in css sheets to fix individual browser problems.


Trying to detect different browsers and serving up different stylesheets is
almost certainly more effort then it is worth.

Usually you don't need to do more then write one stylesheet for everything
and override certain parts of it in a second stylesheet loading inside
conditional comments that restrict it to Internet Explorer.

> Here's the kicker, should I be designing the default page for IE 6 or
> something else?


The general concensus (and my experience) seems to be that it is easier to
write for Firefox (or possibly Opera, Safari or Konqueror) then make
adjustments to deal with other browsers.

> be better off getting as close to Complient as possible and adding fixes
> for IE 6 but I'm not sure WHICH browser is the closest.


The leading non-IE browsers have little to choose between them when it comes
to standards conformance.

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
 
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty
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      04-21-2006
Bill wrote:

> I'm working on learning html/css/java etc so I can maintain a church website
> and am currently rewriting said site to use css instead of tables for
> formating. After getting a good chunk of the way through the rewrite I
> decided to try viewing the site in other browsers, Netscape, mozilla and
> Opera, to see how well the would handle a site designed for IE 6. Of course
> there are differences so I was looking into detecting different browsers so
> I could add in css sheets to fix individual browser problems. Here's the
> kicker, should I be designing the default page for IE 6 or something else?
> What I mean is do I make a page that looks good in IE 6 and fix it for the
> other browsers or do I use something else and fix the page for IE 6 quirks
> and bugs??


Design for other browsers first, then possibly add some fixes for the IE
bugs. Make sure you are using a DOCTYPE that triggers standard and not
quirks mode.

My philosophy is to design with no browser in mind at all.

> Which browser is more Standards Complient?


Among popular modern browsers? Almost any but IE. Perhaps Opera.

> I figure that I'd be better off getting as close to Complient as
> possible and adding fixes for IE 6 but I'm not sure WHICH browser is
> the closest. Any suggestions??


Seeing your efforts to date would be a good start on any
recommendations. URL?

--
-bts
-Warning: I brake for lawn deer
 
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Bill
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      04-21-2006
Whupps, I guess I didn't make it clear what my goals are or what I'm seeing
now so I'll try it again. The original page was developed in IE 6 and had
all of it's margins and padding sized and positioned correctly. When
viewing in Opera/Nestcape/Mozilla a few of the margins and paddings were
off, not much but enough to make me want to 'fix' the problem for those
browsers. What I was considering doing was to use some kine of browser
detector to add in a second css sheet AFTER the original css link on the
page to cascade the 'fixes' for the other browsers into the page. When I
started looking into it it seemed that it might be easier and more correct
to write the code for a more complient browser and then add in the 'fixes'
for IE 6. As it sets now it's looking like I should focus on Opera or
Mozilla as the default browser and get it to look correct in them and then
add any fixes for IE 6.

Thanks for the info.

Bill


"David Dorward" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:e2ar2u$kjb$1$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Bill wrote:
>
> > course there are differences so I was looking into detecting different
> > browsers so I could add in css sheets to fix individual browser

problems.
>
> Trying to detect different browsers and serving up different stylesheets

is
> almost certainly more effort then it is worth.
>
> Usually you don't need to do more then write one stylesheet for everything
> and override certain parts of it in a second stylesheet loading inside
> conditional comments that restrict it to Internet Explorer.
>
> > Here's the kicker, should I be designing the default page for IE 6 or
> > something else?

>
> The general concensus (and my experience) seems to be that it is easier to
> write for Firefox (or possibly Opera, Safari or Konqueror) then make
> adjustments to deal with other browsers.
>
> > be better off getting as close to Complient as possible and adding fixes
> > for IE 6 but I'm not sure WHICH browser is the closest.

>
> The leading non-IE browsers have little to choose between them when it

comes
> to standards conformance.
>
> --
> David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
> Home is where the ~/.bashrc is



 
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Bill
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Posts: n/a
 
      04-21-2006
No URL yet, the original site is www.faithecchurch.org . I started out with
a badly botched up site and completely rewrote it using FrontPage 2003. My
initial try is what I'm calling the interim site, works but not fancy or all
that up to date code wise. I have done some research and discovered css and
decided to rework the site to get most of the formatting out of the content
page. My main goal is to get a technically correct site that will allow
most browsers to view it in an acceptable way, including voice browsers for
the blind(it is a church site after all shouldn't it be accessible to
everyone who wants to 'view' it) and one that is not completely ugly I'm
not looking for extreme or fancy just down to earth, I'm not good enough to
do a 'Heavenly' site


Bill

"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:1i62g.28677$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Bill wrote:
>
> > I'm working on learning html/css/java etc so I can maintain a church

website
> > and am currently rewriting said site to use css instead of tables for
> > formating. After getting a good chunk of the way through the rewrite I
> > decided to try viewing the site in other browsers, Netscape, mozilla and
> > Opera, to see how well the would handle a site designed for IE 6. Of

course
> > there are differences so I was looking into detecting different browsers

so
> > I could add in css sheets to fix individual browser problems. Here's

the
> > kicker, should I be designing the default page for IE 6 or something

else?
> > What I mean is do I make a page that looks good in IE 6 and fix it for

the
> > other browsers or do I use something else and fix the page for IE 6

quirks
> > and bugs??

>
> Design for other browsers first, then possibly add some fixes for the IE
> bugs. Make sure you are using a DOCTYPE that triggers standard and not
> quirks mode.
>
> My philosophy is to design with no browser in mind at all.
>
> > Which browser is more Standards Complient?

>
> Among popular modern browsers? Almost any but IE. Perhaps Opera.
>
> > I figure that I'd be better off getting as close to Complient as
> > possible and adding fixes for IE 6 but I'm not sure WHICH browser is
> > the closest. Any suggestions??

>
> Seeing your efforts to date would be a good start on any
> recommendations. URL?
>
> --
> -bts
> -Warning: I brake for lawn deer



 
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Andy Dingley
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Posts: n/a
 
      04-21-2006

Bill wrote:
> Here's the kicker, should I be designing the default page for IE 6 or something else?


Just don't do that at all. Design for the standard, not for this week's
fashionable browser bugs. There's one standard, it's objective.
Browser bugs always outnumber you, you'll never get on top of them.

That said, you have to be aware of IE simply because it's so
commonplace (so are rats). Being "aware of it" though is a lot
different to "designing for it". Study the well-known faults in IE and
the well-described ways to work around them. Make your standards-based
site behave itself in a way that's also IE-friendly. You don't even
need to look at the page in IE yet - all this stuff is described for
you, you don't need to explore and find it out for yourself.

Then test under IE. Discover the bugs you didn't even expect. Apply
fixes to them where you can (so long as they don't break the
standards-based design) or re-design the site and cut features if you
can't find any work-around.

Browser sniffing is just about the worst thing you could attempt. It's
separately both a bad idea inherently, and unworkable to achieve.

IE conditional comments are useful. They're a bogus idea, but they do
degrade quite well on real web tools. Just always code them as "If
broken M$ product" rather than "If standards-based mode". That way the
correct tools skip them.

 
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David Dorward
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Posts: n/a
 
      04-21-2006
Bill wrote:

Please do not top post: http://allmyfaqs.net/faq.pl?How_to_post

> Whupps, I guess I didn't make it clear what my goals are or what I'm
> seeing now so I'll try it again. The original page was developed in IE 6
> and had all of it's margins and padding sized and positioned correctly.
> When viewing in Opera/Nestcape/Mozilla a few of the margins and paddings
> were off, not much but enough to make me want to 'fix' the problem for
> those browsers.


Odds are that you are using a Doctype that triggers Quirks mode in IE6
causing it to intentionally replicate bugs in earlier versions - including
getting "width" wrong.

Switching to a Doctype that triggers Standards mode and then repairing the
stylesheet is likely the best solution to the problem.

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
 
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      04-21-2006
Bill wrote:

> No URL yet, the original site is www.faithecchurch.org .


Ok, your first goal should be to fix the errors, which will put you well
on your way to being a cross-browser compatible site.

<http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faithecchurch .org%2F>

and some CSS errors and warning as well:

<http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css2&warning=2&uri=http%3A%2F%2F www.faithecchurch.org%2F>

> I started out with a badly botched up site and completely rewrote it
> using FrontPage 2003.


FrontPage. Your next step would be to stop using that. Probably why you
are fixated on writing for IE...

--
-bts
-Warning: I brake for lawn deer
 
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Bill
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      04-21-2006
Below is my doctype line:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

I thought that using strict stopped a browser from doing the fallback thing?

Bill



"David Dorward" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:e2atkj$oui$1$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Bill wrote:
>
> Please do not top post: http://allmyfaqs.net/faq.pl?How_to_post
>
> > Whupps, I guess I didn't make it clear what my goals are or what I'm
> > seeing now so I'll try it again. The original page was developed in IE

6
> > and had all of it's margins and padding sized and positioned correctly.
> > When viewing in Opera/Nestcape/Mozilla a few of the margins and paddings
> > were off, not much but enough to make me want to 'fix' the problem for
> > those browsers.

>
> Odds are that you are using a Doctype that triggers Quirks mode in IE6
> causing it to intentionally replicate bugs in earlier versions - including
> getting "width" wrong.
>
> Switching to a Doctype that triggers Standards mode and then repairing the
> stylesheet is likely the best solution to the problem.
>
> --
> David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
> Home is where the ~/.bashrc is



 
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