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A List of One.

 
 
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dav=E9mon?=
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      04-06-2006
I keep doing this, and it just seems wrong to me.

I'll set up a page structure, or a uniform way of grouping things, using a
list For Example:

<h1>Fangorn Forest<h1>
<ol>
<li>Oak Tree</li>
<li>Ash Tree </li>
<li>Beech Tree </li>
</ol>

and then...

<h1>Lothlorien Wood</h1>
<ol>
<li>Mallorn Tree</li>
<ol>


As you can see, there is only one object in the second list, so it isn't
really a list, but it's the same type of information as the other list, so
makes sense to mark it up the same, and it /could/ be a list in the future,
if someone planted more trees. It seems semantically wrong to have a list
of one, is there a better solution? or am I just mad?


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Davémon
http://www.nightsoil.co.uk/
 
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Barbara de Zoete
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      04-06-2006
[ Cross posted to alt.html; F'up set to alt.html ]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:32:33 +0200, Barbara de Zoete
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:14:53 +0200, Davémon <"davémon"@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> <h1>Fangorn Forest<h1>
>> <ol>
>> <li>Oak Tree</li>
>> <li>Ash Tree </li>
>> <li>Beech Tree </li>
>> </ol>
>>
>> <h1>Lothlorien Wood</h1>
>> <ol>
>> <li>Mallorn Tree</li>
>> <ol>
>> As you can see, there is only one object in the second list,
>> so it isn't really a list, but it's the same type of information
>> as the other list, so makes sense to mark it up the same, and it
>> /could/ be a list in the future, if someone planted more trees.

>
> What you describe, seems to be a list item to me. And you can't use a
> list item outside a list. But indeed a list of one item seems odd.
> Couldn't you use:
>
> <ul>
> <li>Fangorn Forest
> <ol>
> <li>Oak Tree</li>
> <li>Ash Tree </li>
> <li>Beech Tree </li>
> </ol>
> </li>
> <li>Lothlorien Wood
> <ol start="1">
> <li>Mallorn Tree</li>
> </ol>
> </li>
> </ul>
>
> That way the list item and the one-list-item-list it is part of, is part
> of a larger, proper list.
>
> Additionally you would use css to style the list items of the first
> level to look like headings (or you could indeed mark them up as
> headings).


Davémon,

Couldn't you have set a proper notice that you crossposted and set a
follow up to another group than alt.html? And why choose
alt.design.graphics to follow up to? This is definately a markup issue and
has nothing to do with adg.
Had I noticed sooner that you set a follow up, I wouldn't have posted a
reply or would have removed that upappropriate group altogehter.


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=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dav=E9mon?=
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      04-06-2006
Barbara de Zoete arranged shapes to form:

> On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:14:53 +0200, Davémon <"davémon"@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> <h1>Fangorn Forest<h1>
>> <ol>
>> <li>Oak Tree</li>
>> <li>Ash Tree </li>
>> <li>Beech Tree </li>
>> </ol>
>>
>> <h1>Lothlorien Wood</h1>
>> <ol>
>> <li>Mallorn Tree</li>
>> <ol>
>> As you can see, there is only one object in the second list,
>> so it isn't really a list, but it's the same type of information
>> as the other list, so makes sense to mark it up the same, and it
>> /could/ be a list in the future, if someone planted more trees.

>
> What you describe, seems to be a list item to me. And you can't use a list
> item outside a list. But indeed a list of one item seems odd. Couldn't you
> use:
>
> <ul>
> <li>Fangorn Forest
> <ol>
> <li>Oak Tree</li>
> <li>Ash Tree </li>
> <li>Beech Tree </li>
> </ol>
> </li>
> <li>Lothlorien Wood
> <ol start="1">
> <li>Mallorn Tree</li>
> </ol>
> </li>
> </ul>
>
> That way the list item and the one-list-item-list it is part of, is part
> of a larger, proper list.
>


Hmm. Great idea, but Fangorn and Lothlorien are 2 different documents...

> Additionally you would use css to style the list items of the first level
> to look like headings (or you could indeed mark them up as headings).


OOPS. I accidently set followups to ADG. Sorry, set back to alt.html now.

one of those days.



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=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dav=E9mon?=
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      04-06-2006
Barbara de Zoete arranged shapes to form:

>
> Davémon,
>
> Couldn't you have set a proper notice that you crossposted and set a
> follow up to another group than alt.html? And why choose
> alt.design.graphics to follow up to? This is definately a markup issue and
> has nothing to do with adg.
> Had I noticed sooner that you set a follow up, I wouldn't have posted a
> reply or would have removed that upappropriate group altogehter.



Barbara,

You are correct - it is most definately a mark-up issue, not one of
presentation. I didn't realise that I'd set follow-up to ADG and I
sincerely apologise for my own stupidity in doing so, and the confusion
created.

Having said that, thank you for your reply.

--

Davémon
http://www.nightsoil.co.uk/
 
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Toby Inkster
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      04-06-2006
Davémon wrote:

> As you can see, there is only one object in the second list, so it isn't
> really a list


You're entering a world of deep philosophy.

Is a single piece of paper on a desk a pile of paper? Is a single stamp a
collection?

Best to leave such semantic quibbles to professional thinkers and not
worry about it. Use OL.

Personally, I think a list with no items is semantically OK, but the HTML
4.01 DTD disagrees.

--
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Neredbojias
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      04-06-2006
To further the education of mankind, Davémon <"davémon"@nospam.com>
declaimed:

> I keep doing this, and it just seems wrong to me.


Hehehe. You got me just like you got Babs. My "real" reply is in
alt.design.graphics.

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dorayme
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      04-06-2006
In article <jb821o80we6d$(E-Mail Removed)>,
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dav=E9mon?= <"davémon"@nospam.com> wrote:

> Barbara,
>
> You are correct - it is most definately a mark-up issue, not one of
> presentation. I didn't realise that I'd set follow-up to ADG and I
> sincerely apologise for my own stupidity in doing so, and the confusion
> created.
>
> Having said that, thank you for your reply.


God almighty!

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=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dav=E9mon?=
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      04-07-2006
Toby Inkster arranged shapes to form:

> Davémon wrote:
>
>> As you can see, there is only one object in the second list, so it isn't
>> really a list

>
> You're entering a world of deep philosophy.
>
> Is a single piece of paper on a desk a pile of paper? Is a single stamp a
> collection?
>


That's actually really helpful, because it defines the grouping in terms of
an intention rather than the nature of the grouping itself. I tend to think
of HTML as simply /describing/ a documents structure (pile), and quite
rightly, it can be used to categorise it's purpose (collection).

> Best to leave such semantic quibbles to professional thinkers and not
> worry about it. Use OL.
>


I'll phone Saussure and Chomsky later! I do agree that in practice it
matters not a jot.

> Personally, I think a list with no items is semantically OK, but the HTML
> 4.01 DTD disagrees.


Lists with no items? That doesn't make any sense to me at all!

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Toby Inkster
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      04-07-2006
Davémon wrote:

> Lists with no items? That doesn't make any sense to me at all!


The mathematical equivalent for the UL element would be what is called a
"set".

A set is a group of numbers/shapes/letters/vectors/whatever. Some examples
are the set of all positive integers, the set of letters that directly
follow vowels in the alphabet, and the set of all people called Kevin.

The set is an abstract concept, and can be dealt with mathematically, in
many cases without worrying about how many (if any) elements it contains.

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Ed Mullen
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      04-08-2006
Toby Inkster wrote:
> Davémon wrote:
>
>> Lists with no items? That doesn't make any sense to me at all!

>
> The mathematical equivalent for the UL element would be what is called a
> "set".
>
> A set is a group of numbers/shapes/letters/vectors/whatever. Some examples
> are the set of all positive integers, the set of letters that directly
> follow vowels in the alphabet, and the set of all people called Kevin.
>
> The set is an abstract concept, and can be dealt with mathematically, in
> many cases without worrying about how many (if any) elements it contains.
>

And in this example based on mathematics, a set can contain null items.
That is, a set is still a set even if its content is empty.

So. An HTML construct of:

<ul>
</ul>

may be odd but not necessarily "wrong." such a construct will, of
course, have ramifications of visual spacing but it won't break anything
in any other regard.

Intellectually interesting, not sure it's valuable from a practical
standpoint.

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