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IE7:Headache?

 
 
lengthsman@btinternet.com
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      03-28-2006
Normally the threat of even more hacks to render a page would leave me
in a cold sweat but regarding IE7 problems, not today. MS Vista has
been put back at least nine months, why? I suspect they have gone down
the wrong track and they are having to re-evaluated where Windows
should be. I'm old enough to remember people not taking Windows For
Workgroups seriously as networking was Novell's field.

Off topic? How about if I were to change the perspective.

OS: Google / Yahoo
Server: Apache
Application code: HTML,Java,PHP developed in Adobe,Macromedia,SUN
File store: XML

What else do we need? Terminals and a rendering engine for PDA, Mobile
Phones, PC's etc...

Terminals : Linux, Windows, Mac. And that's before you even start on
hand held devices running embedded Linux and windows or bespoke
OS's...

Rendering engines: They way I see it is that everybody is aiming for
W3C compliance with the exception of maybe MS who up until a couple of
days ago thought that they could still control the market. The days of
the browser wars with subtle differences desperately trying to keep a
percentage of the market has long gone and those not W3C compliant
today will be the once ran, tomorrow. Not convinced?

How many rendering engines are there today? Did you include the
PDA's, Phones, WebTV? Could you employ enough hacks and server side
detection to cover all of them and still meet UK (coming to EU and US
soon) accessibility? I don't think so either and the market has known
this for a while. Like the mobile phone market, products will have to
be feature rich as network compatibility is just too important to mess
with.

What brought on this rant? A meeting with a client who's retains the
old adage that 'the customer is always right', and well most of his
competitors have fallen by the wayside because in his customer's
words 'they didn't give them what they wanted'. Multiplied by
what he now wanted was an e-commerce system that would allow a customer
to browse products on their PC, if they need time to finalise the
decision, order or check status on their mobile phone or PDA.

The standards are there, as are most of the platforms, hands up who
want's to exclude themselves! MS IE7? Opera and Firefox and others
are constantly fixing their rendering engines with regular updates to
meet the emerging market trends.

 
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jb
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      03-28-2006
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> Normally the threat of even more hacks to render a page would leave me
> in a cold sweat but regarding IE7 problems, not today. MS Vista has
> been put back at least nine months, why? I suspect they have gone down
> the wrong track and they are having to re-evaluated where Windows
> should be. I'm old enough to remember people not taking Windows For
> Workgroups seriously as networking was Novell's field.
>
> Off topic? How about if I were to change the perspective.
>
> OS: Google / Yahoo
> Server: Apache
> Application code: HTML,Java,PHP developed in Adobe,Macromedia,SUN
> File store: XML
>
> What else do we need? Terminals and a rendering engine for PDA, Mobile
> Phones, PC's etc...
>
> Terminals : Linux, Windows, Mac. And that's before you even start on
> hand held devices running embedded Linux and windows or bespoke
> OS's...
>
> Rendering engines: They way I see it is that everybody is aiming for
> W3C compliance with the exception of maybe MS who up until a couple of
> days ago thought that they could still control the market. The days of
> the browser wars with subtle differences desperately trying to keep a
> percentage of the market has long gone and those not W3C compliant
> today will be the once ran, tomorrow. Not convinced?
>
> How many rendering engines are there today? Did you include the
> PDA's, Phones, WebTV? Could you employ enough hacks and server side
> detection to cover all of them and still meet UK (coming to EU and US
> soon) accessibility? I don't think so either and the market has known
> this for a while. Like the mobile phone market, products will have to
> be feature rich as network compatibility is just too important to mess
> with.
>
> What brought on this rant? A meeting with a client who's retains the
> old adage that 'the customer is always right', and well most of his
> competitors have fallen by the wayside because in his customer's
> words 'they didn't give them what they wanted'. Multiplied by
> what he now wanted was an e-commerce system that would allow a customer
> to browse products on their PC, if they need time to finalise the
> decision, order or check status on their mobile phone or PDA.
>
> The standards are there, as are most of the platforms, hands up who
> want's to exclude themselves! MS IE7? Opera and Firefox and others
> are constantly fixing their rendering engines with regular updates to
> meet the emerging market trends.
>


IE7 is rock solid.
 
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lengthsman@btinternet.com
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      03-29-2006

jb wrote:
>
> IE7 is rock solid.


http://www.quirksmode.org/bugreports...a_2/index.html

 
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jb
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      03-29-2006
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> jb wrote:
>> IE7 is rock solid.

>
> http://www.quirksmode.org/bugreports...a_2/index.html
>


wow, not a single css reference?
 
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Jim Higson
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      03-29-2006
jb wrote:

> IE7 is rock solid.


IE7 is where Opera, Firefox etc were 4 years ago.
Here's an interesting page, with shots of Acid2 under Opera 1-9 and IE6/7:

http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/operaStuff/acid/

IE7 seems to be about the same as Opera 4.

--
Jim
 
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Travis Newbury
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      03-29-2006
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > IE7 is rock solid.

> http://www.quirksmode.org/bugreports...a_2/index.html


Actually 69 bugs while in beta is not that bad. Heck, mozilla has 40
current bugs, and it isn't in beta.

If IE7 gives me some tabs and a few other FF features I like, then it
is good bye FF, hello IE7

 
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Gernot Frisch
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      03-29-2006

> Actually 69 bugs while in beta is not that bad. Heck, mozilla has
> 40
> current bugs, and it isn't in beta.
>
> If IE7 gives me some tabs and a few other FF features I like, then
> it
> is good bye FF, hello IE7


I think you are the only one who thinks so...


 
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Jim Higson
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      03-29-2006
Travis Newbury wrote:

> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>> > IE7 is rock solid.

>>

http://www.quirksmode.org/bugreports...a_2/index.html
>
> Actually 69 bugs while in beta is not that bad. Heck, mozilla has 40
> current bugs, and it isn't in beta.


Or to look at it another way, only 40 have been found in Moz while loads of
people are using it every day. Hardly anyone uses IE7 and they've already
found more.

Most of the bugs on that page are layout related and IE is in a "layout
freeze" so these problems with the beta will probably be there in the final
realease.

> If IE7 gives me some tabs and a few other FF features I like, then it
> is good bye FF, hello IE7


I suppose when you're surfing as an end user it doesn't really matter since
the designer will have hacked around whatever IE bugs pop up.
 
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lengthsman@btinternet.com
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      03-29-2006

Jim Higson wrote:
> Travis Newbury wrote:
>
> > (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> >> > IE7 is rock solid.
> >>

> http://www.quirksmode.org/bugreports...a_2/index.html
> >
> > Actually 69 bugs while in beta is not that bad. Heck, mozilla has 40
> > current bugs, and it isn't in beta.

>
> Or to look at it another way, only 40 have been found in Moz while loads of
> people are using it every day. Hardly anyone uses IE7 and they've already
> found more.
>
> Most of the bugs on that page are layout related and IE is in a "layout
> freeze" so these problems with the beta will probably be there in the final
> realease.
>
> > If IE7 gives me some tabs and a few other FF features I like, then it
> > is good bye FF, hello IE7

>
> I suppose when you're surfing as an end user it doesn't really matter since
> the designer will have hacked around whatever IE bugs pop up.



For a while I thought it was only me that notice the "layout freeze" so
that's about what? 9 months min for vista then what another 12 before
IE7.5 meanwhile in 24 months an expected 25% web access will be from
embedded devices who are currently trying to achieve XHTML strict CSS 2
browsers. If Opera/Mozilla continues with the momentum they will
probably be there as well and will have taken a lot more of the market.
Meanwhile back at MS HQ will have their fingers crossed hoping that an
external developer has found a hack to fix their bugs!

Quote from alistapart.com

"Catching different browser bugs to maintain my design instead of
simply display the line 'you are using substandard and defected
software; if it can't display this page properly do you really want
to try a secure credit card transaction'."

I WISH !!!

 
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Jim Higson
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      03-29-2006
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> For a while I thought it was only me that notice the "layout freeze" so
> that's about what? 9 months min for vista then what another 12 before
> IE7.5 meanwhile in 24 months an expected 25% web access will be from
> embedded devices who are currently trying to achieve XHTML strict CSS 2
> browsers. If Opera/Mozilla continues with the momentum they will
> probably be there as well and will have taken a lot more of the market.
> Meanwhile back at MS HQ will have their fingers crossed hoping that an
> external developer has found a hack to fix their bugs!


The 25% you quote - that's very interesting - where is that from? What would
a phone maker do:

(a) pay MS for using their not very good renderer
(b) get a good one (Gecko, KTHML) for free, pay some for support
(c) pay Opera for the best renderer out there
(d) make and support your own (very expensive)

I can't see too many choosing (a). Personally I'd choose between Opera and
KHTML - Gecko is probably a little too heavy for small CPUs. IIRC, KHTML is
favoured by Nokia for their phones.

> Quote from alistapart.com
>
> "Catching different browser bugs to maintain my design instead of
> simply display the line 'you are using substandard and defected
> software; if it can't display this page properly do you really want
> to try a secure credit card transaction'."
>
> I WISH !!!


Me too. In the real world though users are more likely to think "if this
site can't display the page properly, do I really want to try a secure
credit card transaction?".

--
Jim
 
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