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Grim reality...

 
 
Luigi Donatello Asero
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      11-25-2005

"dorayme" <> skrev i meddelandet
news:BFACAAC6.1A867%...
> > From: Travis Newbury <>
> >
> > browser with yor particular settings):
> >
> > http://www.georgiaaquarium.org
> >
> > Or I should say, they hired this company to do it for them:
> >
> > http://www.spunlogic.com/
> >
> > Now go look at their list of client's. (Some of them are on the
> > front page, but there are more)
> >
> > So, here in alt.html we read/preach/rant about validation, and
> > using CSS, don't require javascript, flash blows, you know the
> > drill. But in the real world we seem to find the exact oposite. At
> > least the real world as known to Americans (which is obviously the
> > target for all these companies).



> > I am not bringing this contrast up to argue which is better as
> > there are more than enough threads in this group that talk about
> > that. (Hell I have myself participate in one or two threads like
> > that...) But rather to point out how there is a HUGE job market
> > for many of the skills frowned upon in this group. As a matter of
> > fact in Atlanta, the job market for IT positions is at pre-internet
> > bubble burst levels. So what is causing this boom in the "evil
> > technology"?
> >
> > Could the growing number of developers aware of validation etc, be
> > shrinking the number of developers heading in the "non validating"
> > direction, thus causing a need for these type of developers in the
> > companies where the web page is still run by marketing?
> >
> > Or could it be that more people want the web to be more interactive
> > and sites like these are making tons of money, and that is why
> > there is a boom for these types of developers?
> >
> > I find this contrast interesting.
> >
> > Civil comments?
> >

>
> Perhaps this is going on: the folk who are good at making money
> have not had time to study and read and practice better
> standards of website construction. Nothing in best practice
> stops use of the interaction or flair you refer to. But it
> requires time and patience to do both jazzy frontend and solid
> backend stuff. The folk going for the (perhaps more superficial)
> popular styles etc can get it without quite so much effort using
> crappy source and/or wsiwigs.
>
> Division of labour thing going on: they are hell bent on the
> output and anything will do to make it how they want it (and
> that means mainly in IE). If it mostly works, why spend time on
> validation issues (they think... or "don't think"!) They get
> good at providing reasonably quickly what people find
> immediately attractive - this makes for a marketable skill more
> quickly acquired....
>
> --
> dorayme
>
> (as usual, speaking from BdeZ killfile)




Interesting thread.
No sign of water on Mars, yet?

--
Luigi Donatello Asero
https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv...-i-italien.php






 
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dorayme
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      11-25-2005
> From: "Luigi Donatello Asero" <>
>
> Interesting thread.
> No sign of water on Mars, yet?


How's secret business? Making a lire or two?

--
dorayme

 
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Luigi Donatello Asero
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      11-25-2005

"dorayme" <> skrev i meddelandet
news:BFACB5B3.1A871%...
> > From: "Luigi Donatello Asero" <>
> >
> > Interesting thread.
> > No sign of water on Mars, yet?

>
> How's secret business? Making a lire or two?



Lire were used in Italy not on Mars.. Dorayme...
and nowadays they are not used any longer..
(parli lŽitaliano?)
Mars is still a topic and will probably be on topic on the press for a
while..
But back to the main topic...
I guess that the reasons why a website is
successful or not depend on so many different reasons...
not only design...
Personally, I see validation as an advantage.
As to design itself, colours and so on they are often a matter of personal
taste..
--
Luigi Donatello Asero
https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/en...y-lodgings.php






 
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Neredbojias
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      11-25-2005
With neither quill nor qualm, Jim Higson quothed:

> > When you commission an architect etc. for building you a house, surely
> > you expect them to comply with the applicable building codes - even
> > those you are not aware of yourself? Why should it be different for
> > building web sites?

>
> It shouldn't, but unfortunately it is.
> Probably because most people at least know that building codes exist. I
> don't think most people know the W3C exists.


Furthermore, some people know it exists but wish they didn't.

--
Neredbojias
Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
 
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Neredbojias
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      11-25-2005
With neither quill nor qualm, Travis Newbury quothed:

> Here is the grim reality of the world. The new Georgia Aquarium
> was just built (the largest in the world I might add) Anyway, they
> obviously needed a website.
>
> Starting from scratch they could have done anything. But they
> didn't they did this (warning it may not work in your particular
> browser with yor particular settings):
>
> http://www.georgiaaquarium.org
>
> Or I should say, they hired this company to do it for them:
>
> http://www.spunlogic.com/
>
> Now go look at their list of client's. (Some of them are on the
> front page, but there are more)
>
> So, here in alt.html we read/preach/rant about validation, and
> using CSS, don't require javascript, flash blows, you know the
> drill. But in the real world we seem to find the exact oposite. At
> least the real world as known to Americans (which is obviously the
> target for all these companies).
>
> I am not bringing this contrast up to argue which is better as
> there are more than enough threads in this group that talk about
> that. (Hell I have myself participate in one or two threads like
> that...) But rather to point out how there is a HUGE job market
> for many of the skills frowned upon in this group. As a matter of
> fact in Atlanta, the job market for IT positions is at pre-internet
> bubble burst levels. So what is causing this boom in the "evil
> technology"?
>
> Could the growing number of developers aware of validation etc, be
> shrinking the number of developers heading in the "non validating"
> direction, thus causing a need for these type of developers in the
> companies where the web page is still run by marketing?
>
> Or could it be that more people want the web to be more interactive
> and sites like these are making tons of money, and that is why
> there is a boom for these types of developers?


That's exactly it. However, a fully standards-compatible, usability-
friendly site can be just as attractive, attention-getting, and
"awesome" as any archaic site on the web, -in fact even more so. The
secret is in using javascript.

I know, I know, -what if Joe Blow or Jolene Blowess doesn't have js
turned on? The answer is: who cares? You, as the pagemaker, are trying
to impress the client, not the user. If the client wants spangles, give
him all the js spangles he wants. With just a little acuity, you can
have your cake and eat it, too.

>
> I find this contrast interesting.
>
> Civil comments?
>
>


--
Neredbojias
Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
 
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Travis Newbury
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      11-25-2005
Jim Higson <> said:
> I don't think this is about developers as much as the people who
> pay for the sites. Most people commissioning a site don't know
> anything about web standards, so with no increased payout for
> creating quality there's no incentive for the web developers to
> improve their sites.


So you believe the demand is more or less caused by the marketing
departments (they are the people that"pay" for the sites) driving
web development. I also lean that way. But I also think people
are accepting or god forbid enjoying it. Especially if they have
broadband.

--
-=tn=-
 
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Travis Newbury
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      11-25-2005
"Alan J. Flavell" <> said:

> When you commission an architect etc. for building you a house,
> surely you expect them to comply with the applicable building
> codes - even those you are not aware of yourself? Why should it
> be different for building web sites?



Yea, but when I want someone to make me dinner, I want the chef to
add his own personal touches. The recipe is only a guide... Proving
analogies are meaningless to prove a point...

--
-=tn=-
 
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Luigi Donatello Asero
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      11-25-2005

"Travis Newbury" <> skrev i meddelandet
news:Xns971948685623Etravisenewburyhotmai@69.28.18 6.121...
> Jim Higson <> said:
> > I don't think this is about developers as much as the people who
> > pay for the sites. Most people commissioning a site don't know
> > anything about web standards, so with no increased payout for
> > creating quality there's no incentive for the web developers to
> > improve their sites.

>
> So you believe the demand is more or less caused by the marketing
> departments (they are the people that"pay" for the sites) driving
> web development. I also lean that way. But I also think people
> are accepting or god forbid enjoying it. Especially if they have
> broadband.
>
> --
> -=tn=-


Large companies do not probably base their advertising campaign too much on
their ranking on search engines...
and as long as most users use IE and they can access the site and provided
most users have a fast connection like broadband, flash sites can probably
get many visits..

--
Luigi Donatello Asero
https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de...-badzimmer.php








 
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Travis Newbury
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      11-25-2005
dorayme <> said:
> Nothing in best practice
> stops use of the interaction or flair you refer to.


Yea it does, but that's a different argument.

> But it
> requires time and patience to do both jazzy frontend and solid
> backend stuff.


Something that does not exist in corporate America. The american
culture does not have time to wait for people to learn. They want
it, and they want it now. And if something shinier comes along
they will suddenly turn direction.

> The folk going for the (perhaps more superficial)
> popular styles etc can get it without quite so much effort using
> crappy source and/or wsiwigs.


Folks going for the superficial are called Americans. Remeber
superficial, and wanting things right now, and sudden changes of
whims are unbelievably bennificial to capitalism. It helps the
economy grow.

> Division of labour thing going on: they are hell bent on the
> output and anything will do to make it how they want it (and
> that means mainly in IE). If it mostly works, why spend time on
> validation issues (they think... or "don't think"!) They get
> good at providing reasonably quickly what people find
> immediately attractive - this makes for a marketable skill more
> quickly acquired....


Yep you are exactly right.

--
-=tn=-
 
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Travis Newbury
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-25-2005
"Luigi Donatello Asero" <> said:

> Interesting thread.
> No sign of water on Mars, yet?


Obviously you are not watching, They have found signs of water on
mars ages ago.

--
-=tn=-
 
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