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Nick Theodorakis
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      10-23-2005
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:08:20 +0100, "Helen" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>It's ok, I got it sorted. Instead of the <font size=1> you put <font
>style="font-size:9px"> - which seems to be working.
>


It won't work with me, because for my settings in Mozilla, I have the
minimum font size set at 12 pixels.

Nick

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Neredbojias
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      10-23-2005
With neither quill nor qualm, Helen quothed:

> It's the only way I can get the text to be the same in both FireFox and IE
> without having to keep changing the size of the text in firefox, which also
> then means that i'll have to change it when I go to another site, something
> that is a major pain in the arse and why I have some sites open only in IE.


It sounds like your designs are vulnerable to text-size variations -
which isn't good design.

> I'm using the Veranda font so I think that is also making the text a bit
> bigger in FireFox too.


Many people gripe about Verdana for obscure reasons, although I like it.
However, it probably isn't the font most apt for a text-size sensitive
page. You might want to try "Trebuchet MS".

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Neredbojias
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Alan J. Flavell
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      10-23-2005

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Neredbojias wrote:

> Many people gripe about Verdana for obscure reasons,


There are people (of which I'm one) who advise against including it in
author stylesheets for body text, for reasons which are clearly stated
(sbpoley's page on the topic states them well, IMHO). If you disagree
with them, you're entirely free to explain why. Murmuring about
"obscure reasons" doesn't seem very honest to me.

> although I like it.


I'm sure Verdana is a fine font for some purposes: feel entirely free
to set it as your browser default if you wish, or even to force it via
your user stylesheet instead of what the author is proposing. The
advice, however, remains: not to propose it for body text in an author
stylesheet.

best
 
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Neredbojias
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      10-23-2005
With neither quill nor qualm, Alan J. Flavell quothed:

>
> On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Neredbojias wrote:
>
> > Many people gripe about Verdana for obscure reasons,

>
> There are people (of which I'm one) who advise against including it in
> author stylesheets for body text, for reasons which are clearly stated
> (sbpoley's page on the topic states them well, IMHO). If you disagree
> with them, you're entirely free to explain why. Murmuring about
> "obscure reasons" doesn't seem very honest to me.


Poley's main argument is that Verdana is slightly larger than the
average font at the same size-setting. So big deal. Maybe the author
wants his/her font to be slightly larger for improved readability,
which, indeed, the font provides.

Poley implies that authors are apt to specify a smaller css font-size
setting to compensate for Verdana's largesse over, say, Arial. Gee
whiz, if that's the only _mistake_ an author makes, he's doing quite
well on the whole. Anything can be abused by improper usage.

In addition, Poley states that the only common font he knows of which
doesn't have digits of the same width is "Georgia" (-in refuting a
reason to use Verdana.) While this may be true, the visible part of a
thin digit does not always align well with that of a thicker digit and
Verdana's greater girth helps alleviate this discrepancy.
>
> > although I like it.

>
> I'm sure Verdana is a fine font for some purposes: feel entirely free
> to set it as your browser default if you wish, or even to force it via
> your user stylesheet instead of what the author is proposing.


I'm not suggesting either of those options. I'm just saying that
Verdana seems a good font to me for some purposes. I like to use it for
logos and some headings.

> The
> advice, however, remains: not to propose it for body text in an author
> stylesheet.


In general, probably not. However, I wouldn't hesitate to use it if the
document were overwhelmingly textual material, such as a story or manual
calculated to test one's tedium.
>
> best
>


Same.

--
Neredbojias
Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
 
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Luigi Donatello Asero
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-24-2005

"Neredbojias" <(E-Mail Removed)> skrev i meddelandet
news:(E-Mail Removed) ...
> With neither quill nor qualm, Alan J. Flavell quothed:
>
> >
> > On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Neredbojias wrote:
> >
> > > Many people gripe about Verdana for obscure reasons,

> >
> > There are people (of which I'm one) who advise against including it in
> > author stylesheets for body text, for reasons which are clearly stated
> > (sbpoley's page on the topic states them well, IMHO). If you disagree
> > with them, you're entirely free to explain why. Murmuring about
> > "obscure reasons" doesn't seem very honest to me.

>
> Poley's main argument is that Verdana is slightly larger than the
> average font at the same size-setting. So big deal. Maybe the author
> wants his/her font to be slightly larger for improved readability,
> which, indeed, the font provides.
>
> Poley implies that authors are apt to specify a smaller css font-size
> setting to compensate for Verdana's largesse over, say, Arial. Gee
> whiz, if that's the only _mistake_ an author makes, he's doing quite
> well on the whole. Anything can be abused by improper usage.
>
> In addition, Poley states that the only common font he knows of which
> doesn't have digits of the same width is "Georgia" (-in refuting a
> reason to use Verdana.) While this may be true, the visible part of a
> thin digit does not always align well with that of a thicker digit and
> Verdana's greater girth helps alleviate this discrepancy.
> >
> > > although I like it.

> >
> > I'm sure Verdana is a fine font for some purposes: feel entirely free
> > to set it as your browser default if you wish, or even to force it via
> > your user stylesheet instead of what the author is proposing.

>
> I'm not suggesting either of those options. I'm just saying that
> Verdana seems a good font to me for some purposes. I like to use it for
> logos and some headings.
>
> > The
> > advice, however, remains: not to propose it for body text in an author
> > stylesheet.

>
> In general, probably not. However, I wouldn't hesitate to use it if the
> document were overwhelmingly textual material, such as a story or manual
> calculated to test one's tedium.
> >
> > best
> >

>
> Same.
>
> --



Did anybody suggest in the past in this NG that it would not be wise to
style the fonts because the configuration can be overriden by users´
browsers?

--
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(я итальянец но я живу в Швеции )
(我是 意大利人 , 但是 我 住 在 瑞典)
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(yo soy italiano mas vivo en Suecia)
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dorayme
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      10-24-2005
> From: "Luigi Donatello Asero" <(E-Mail Removed)>
>
> Did anybody suggest in the past in this NG that it would not be wise to
> style the fonts because the configuration can be overriden by users
> browsers?



Best not to rely heavily on particular fonts or sizes. If a
website starts looking ghastly because a user has not got a
particular specified font or needs it at a different size to the
one specified then so much worse for the website design. It is
instructive to try your hand at simply not specifying a font
family at all (besides the generic ones like 'sans-serif'...)

To do the best job possible, it helps to have some sort of idea
of what is out there: probably a big cluster of folk on 15" to
19" screens with many of the fonts you have, smaller clusters of
people on other screens or readers, some with eyesight needs
quite different to yours and so on... If you make it nice for a
lot of folk, and useable (to extract important info) for the
rest, then you will do well...

--
dorayme

 
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Arne
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      10-24-2005
Once upon a time *Neredbojias* wrote:
>
> Poley's main argument is that Verdana is slightly larger than the
> average font at the same size-setting. So big deal. Maybe the author
> wants his/her font to be slightly larger for improved readability,
> which, indeed, the font provides.


So why not use Arial with 10-11px if size in pixels necessarily want
to be used, insted of Verdana 9px.


> Poley implies that authors are apt to specify a smaller css font-size
> setting to compensate for Verdana's largesse over, say, Arial. Gee
> whiz, if that's the only _mistake_ an author makes, he's doing quite
> well on the whole. Anything can be abused by improper usage.


Anything can be abused by improper usage, thank's to IE that allow
authors to "take over" the users browser in many ways. And is also
very happy to accept nasty scripts from e.g. ActiveX and VBscript that
a evil author put on the web. Fortunately other browsers can't be abused.

--
/Arne
Now killing all top posters and posters who don't quote
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* From Google: http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/
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Neredbojias
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-24-2005
With neither quill nor qualm, Luigi Donatello Asero quothed:

>
> "Neredbojias" <(E-Mail Removed)> skrev i meddelandet
> news:(E-Mail Removed) ...
> > With neither quill nor qualm, Alan J. Flavell quothed:
> >
> > >
> > > On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Neredbojias wrote:
> > >
> > > > Many people gripe about Verdana for obscure reasons,
> > >
> > > There are people (of which I'm one) who advise against including it in
> > > author stylesheets for body text, for reasons which are clearly stated
> > > (sbpoley's page on the topic states them well, IMHO). If you disagree
> > > with them, you're entirely free to explain why. Murmuring about
> > > "obscure reasons" doesn't seem very honest to me.

> >
> > Poley's main argument is that Verdana is slightly larger than the
> > average font at the same size-setting. So big deal. Maybe the author
> > wants his/her font to be slightly larger for improved readability,
> > which, indeed, the font provides.
> >
> > Poley implies that authors are apt to specify a smaller css font-size
> > setting to compensate for Verdana's largesse over, say, Arial. Gee
> > whiz, if that's the only _mistake_ an author makes, he's doing quite
> > well on the whole. Anything can be abused by improper usage.
> >
> > In addition, Poley states that the only common font he knows of which
> > doesn't have digits of the same width is "Georgia" (-in refuting a
> > reason to use Verdana.) While this may be true, the visible part of a
> > thin digit does not always align well with that of a thicker digit and
> > Verdana's greater girth helps alleviate this discrepancy.
> > >
> > > > although I like it.
> > >
> > > I'm sure Verdana is a fine font for some purposes: feel entirely free
> > > to set it as your browser default if you wish, or even to force it via
> > > your user stylesheet instead of what the author is proposing.

> >
> > I'm not suggesting either of those options. I'm just saying that
> > Verdana seems a good font to me for some purposes. I like to use it for
> > logos and some headings.
> >
> > > The
> > > advice, however, remains: not to propose it for body text in an author
> > > stylesheet.

> >
> > In general, probably not. However, I wouldn't hesitate to use it if the
> > document were overwhelmingly textual material, such as a story or manual
> > calculated to test one's tedium.
> > >
> > > best
> > >

> >
> > Same.
> >
> > --

>
>
> Did anybody suggest in the past in this NG that it would not be wise to
> style the fonts because the configuration can be overriden by users´
> browsers?


The law of averages strongly suggests "Yes." But there's nothing wrong
with setting a font as long as it's done in the spirit of styling and
the page works well with any (normal) font.

--
Neredbojias
Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
 
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Neredbojias
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      10-24-2005
With neither quill nor qualm, Arne quothed:

> Once upon a time *Neredbojias* wrote:
> >
> > Poley's main argument is that Verdana is slightly larger than the
> > average font at the same size-setting. So big deal. Maybe the author
> > wants his/her font to be slightly larger for improved readability,
> > which, indeed, the font provides.

>
> So why not use Arial with 10-11px if size in pixels necessarily want
> to be used, insted of Verdana 9px.


The look. Verdana has a fuller, blockier look than Arial which can be
preferable at times and is also more desirable from the accessibility
standpoint.

> > Poley implies that authors are apt to specify a smaller css font-size
> > setting to compensate for Verdana's largesse over, say, Arial. Gee
> > whiz, if that's the only _mistake_ an author makes, he's doing quite
> > well on the whole. Anything can be abused by improper usage.

>
> Anything can be abused by improper usage, thank's to IE that allow
> authors to "take over" the users browser in many ways. And is also
> very happy to accept nasty scripts from e.g. ActiveX and VBscript that
> a evil author put on the web. Fortunately other browsers can't be abused.


Yes, MS was probably not as astute as it could have been in the area of
security, but that's business. I don't think BG is losing any sleep
over it.

--
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JDS
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      10-24-2005
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:08:18 +0100, Helen wrote:

> It's the only way I can get the text to be the same in both FireFox and IE


Why is this so important to you?

It sounds like you are a print designer trying to make way into the more
fluid and less controllable realm of web design. Web design requires
a different approach in some respects than print design.

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