«

I've started out by coding websites for myself - but eventually have
moved on to making websites as projects for people. Originally, when
doing personal websites, I had the leisure of taking my time and coding
however I wanted - however, when coding for someone else, they often
want things done a certain way.

It's hard explain to someone non technically-savvy about what's the
best way to code a website - they often want a feature that isn't
exactly in line with coding standards. So basically, you have to
explain to them in as simple terms as possible, the advantages of
coding according to web standards.

For example, take excessive javascript code - many clients or users
might want you to make a website that has some fancy flashing text or
needless image effects using javascript. It might work fine for your
user, who has a mainstream windows PC that runs these effects fine.

However, you need to make your user realize that not everyone's PC is
equal - and thus as a result, javascript in one person's browser
might completely bog down their computer's resources so much, that it
virtually renders it useless. In others, javascript might not even be
supported. So, any functionality of the site that relies on javascript
will be inaccessible by these users.

It's impossible to track down all of the combinations of users'
operating systems, computer speeds, and browser software, so it is best
just to stay away from javascript altogether. When making an
informational or commercial website, it's very important to take your
audience into consideration.

If you're making a vending site that sells computer parts, most likely
your audience will be computer savvy and may be able to handle some
javascript elements. However, if you're making a general information
page on a topic, you should make your page as clear and accessible as
possible.

So, that's just one aspect of code that you may not see eye to eye
with your user about. However, explain it to them in easy to
understand concepts, and they will have an easier time comprehending.

Jeff Fritz wrote:
> It's hard explain to someone non technically-savvy about what's the
> best way to code a website - they often want a feature that isn't
> exactly in line with coding standards....

As it should be, it is their site. You can tell them all the benefits
in the world about how a properly coded website is more acessible, or
that usibility is better, bla bla bla. But they don't care. Their
competition's website has a fancy purple spinner, and theirs should
too.

After you explain the advantages of a propperly coded website, it is in
their ball park. If they want the fancy purple spinny thing, then give
it to them, or they will take their business to someone that will.

You can then walk away knowing you did the honorable thing. But
someone else walks away with a paycheck for making the fancy purple
spinner....

--
-=tn=-

Travis Newbury wrote:

> If they want the fancy purple spinny thing, then give
> it to them, or they will take their business to someone that will.

It depends on what your role is. If you're there as a lowly web-grunt
(someone who codes what they're told), then get spinning. If you're
there as a consultant (someone who offers to make ecomm work), then you
have to explain to them why they shouldn't use the dancing penguin, or
else you leave gracefully. The last thing you want is for your
long-term reputation to become "The guy who made the awful site for
FooCo where you couldn't see the content for purple spinny stuff".

With neither quill nor qualm, Jeff Fritz quothed:

> I've started out by coding websites for myself - but eventually have
> moved on to making websites as projects for people. Originally, when
> doing personal websites, I had the leisure of taking my time and coding
> however I wanted - however, when coding for someone else, they often
> want things done a certain way.
>
> It's hard explain to someone non technically-savvy about what's the
> best way to code a website - they often want a feature that isn't
> exactly in line with coding standards. So basically, you have to
> explain to them in as simple terms as possible, the advantages of
> coding according to web standards.
>
> For example, take excessive javascript code - many clients or users
> might want you to make a website that has some fancy flashing text or
> needless image effects using javascript. It might work fine for your
> user, who has a mainstream windows PC that runs these effects fine.
>
> However, you need to make your user realize that not everyone's PC is
> equal - and thus as a result, javascript in one person's browser
> might completely bog down their computer's resources so much, that it
> virtually renders it useless. In others, javascript might not even be
> supported. So, any functionality of the site that relies on javascript
> will be inaccessible by these users.
>
> It's impossible to track down all of the combinations of users'
> operating systems, computer speeds, and browser software, so it is best
> just to stay away from javascript altogether. When making an
> informational or commercial website, it's very important to take your
> audience into consideration.
>
> If you're making a vending site that sells computer parts, most likely
> your audience will be computer savvy and may be able to handle some
> javascript elements. However, if you're making a general information
> page on a topic, you should make your page as clear and accessible as
> possible.
>
> So, that's just one aspect of code that you may not see eye to eye
> with your user about. However, explain it to them in easy to
> understand concepts, and they will have an easier time comprehending.

You could always add a link on the page to shut off the active content
crap.

--
Neredbojias
Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.

Jeff Fritz wrote:

> If you're making a vending site that sells computer parts, most likely
> your audience will be computer savvy

And therefore will have wisely turned it off!

If you use real world figures for browser usage, you will lose this
argument. The vast majority of people are running Window boxes and
Internet Explorer with the default settings.

Personally, I work with the standard and only deviate when absolutely
necessary to get something to work in IE. I _NEVER_ use javascript in
such a way that it is required. For example, I'll use javascript to set
the focus in the first element of a form, it's a nice feature if it
works and the page doesn't break if javascript is turned off. Using
javascript based links to open other pages breaks all kinds of ****,
including (and this might get their attention) "Search Engine
Optimization" (I'm trying to be buzzword complient).

A few simple arguments.

1. Standards complient pages are easier to maintain.
2. Standards complient pages load faster.
3. Standards complient pages make search engines happier.
4. Standards complient pages are easier to make accessible to people
with disabilities (e.g. blind).
5. Standards complient pages usually use less bandwidth
6. Javascript should be used to improve the experience for the user, but
the lack of it should never prevent the page from being usable.
7. Javascript is usually not Search Engine friendly.
8. Flash is not Search Engine friendly (besides, it's evil).
9. ActiveX is evil incarnate and anyone who uses it is going to hell.
Plus, God kills a kitten and a puppy each time someone uses ActiveX.

--
Rossz

In our last episode, Rossz <> pronounced to
alt.html:

> For example, I'll use javascript to set
> the focus in the first element of a form, it's a nice feature if it
> works

I beg to differ. Unless there is only one form element on the page, and
the form is the whole purpose of the page (e.g. Google's home page), I
find it really annoying.

--
Mark Parnell
http://clarkecomputers.com.au
alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:10:25 +1000, Mark Parnell
<> wrote:

>In our last episode, Rossz <> pronounced to
>alt.html:
>
>> For example, I'll use javascript to set
>> the focus in the first element of a form, it's a nice feature if it
>> works
>
>I beg to differ. Unless there is only one form element on the page, and
>the form is the whole purpose of the page (e.g. Google's home page), I
>find it really annoying.
>

It annoys me. I tend to use the backspace button to go back in teh
browser history, and I hate it when the cursor gets "stuck" in a form
field.

Nick

--
Nick Theodorakis

contact form:
http://theodorakis.net/contact.html

Mark Parnell wrote:
> In our last episode, Rossz <> pronounced to
> alt.html:
>
>
>>For example, I'll use javascript to set
>>the focus in the first element of a form, it's a nice feature if it
>>works
>
>
> I beg to differ. Unless there is only one form element on the page, and
> the form is the whole purpose of the page (e.g. Google's home page), I
> find it really annoying.

I agree. I wouldn't set the focus in a search box that's way in the
lower right corner, but when the whole purpose of a particular page is
the form, then setting the focus simply makes life easier.

--
Rossz

> From: "Andy Dingley" <>
>
> Travis Newbury wrote:
>
>> If they want the fancy purple spinny thing, then give
>> it to them, or they will take their business to someone that will.
>
> It depends on what your role is. If you're there as a lowly web-grunt
> (someone who codes what they're told), then get spinning. If you're
> there as a consultant (someone who offers to make ecomm work), then you
> have to explain to them why they shouldn't use the dancing penguin, or
> else you leave gracefully. The last thing you want is for your
> long-term reputation to become "The guy who made the awful site for
> FooCo where you couldn't see the content for purple spinny stuff".
>

Well said indeed!

dorayme

Andy Dingley wrote:
> Travis Newbury wrote:
> > If they want the fancy purple spinny thing, then give
> > it to them, or they will take their business to someone that will.
> It depends on what your role is. If you're there as a lowly web-grunt
> (someone who codes what they're told), then get spinning. If you're
> there as a consultant (someone who offers to make ecomm work), then you
> have to explain to them why they shouldn't use the dancing penguin, or
> else you leave gracefully.

So you are telling me that if company XYZ came up to you and said "here
is a contract that will pretty much set you up for the next year or
two, but we want a dancing penguin. Your reply would be "I am sorry,
my web morals will not let me make such a site for you."

Mine would be, "Will it be dancing to the right or left, and what color
would you like...."

In the real world (outside of alt.html) It is easier to sell a client
on wiz-bang than not. (And wiz-bang != ecomm not working)

--
-=tn=-