Velocity Reviews - Computer Hardware Reviews

Velocity Reviews > Newsgroups > Programming > HTML > ****ed off

Reply
Thread Tools

****ed off

 
 
windandwaves
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-13-2005
Hi Folk

I was just wondering if any of you are ****ed off with the enormous amount
of garbage out there on the net:

<body leftmargin="0" right.....>
</font><font blah blah></p><p></font><p></p> etc.....

while all that could have been
<p id="x">...</p>

I am not actually angry about people making a mess, but what annoys me is
that their page can "look" just as tidy as html strict with superbly
formatted stylesheets, etc...

How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their mess "behind
the scenes"? and can we blame frontpage + dreamweaver for this mess?

Keen to hear your comments.

- Nicolaas


 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Travis Newbury
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-13-2005
"windandwaves" <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
> I am not actually angry about people making a mess, but what
> annoys me is that their page can "look" just as tidy as html
> strict with superbly formatted stylesheets, etc...


I think there are a heck of a lot of people out there that "prefer"
the looks you can get with that shity code.


> How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their
> mess "behind the scenes"? and can we blame frontpage +
> dreamweaver for this mess?


Tell him about all the nerds and geeks that use something other than
FF or IE that his pages may not look exactly the same way in... I am
sure you will knock their sox off when you show them how great it
"looks" to a blind person...

Ok, I may be joking a litle, but that is argument you will have to
win ESPECIALLY if they perceive their current website as being
sucessfull.


--
-=tn=-
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Mark Parnell
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-13-2005
In our last episode, windandwaves <(E-Mail Removed)> pronounced
to alt.html:

> How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their mess "behind
> the scenes"?


Bandwidth - clean pages are smaller, therefore much less bandwidth used.
This can make a big difference, especially for big sites.

WRT CSS vs presentational HTML, code maintenance is much quicker and
easier - changes are made in one place, not throughout every file in the
site.

Not sure about NZ, but here in Australia, and in many other countries,
accessible sites are required by law. It's much easier to make a site
accessible if it's coded properly.

> and can we blame frontpage + dreamweaver for this mess?


Frontpage to an extent, Dreamweaver (recent versions at least) less so.
Ultimately it's clueless web authors that are truly to blame - if they
didn't accept rubbish code, the editors would have to play nice.

--
Mark Parnell
http://clarkecomputers.com.au
alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/
 
Reply With Quote
 
windandwaves
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2005
Travis Newbury wrote:
> "windandwaves" <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>> I am not actually angry about people making a mess, but what
>> annoys me is that their page can "look" just as tidy as html
>> strict with superbly formatted stylesheets, etc...

>
> I think there are a heck of a lot of people out there that "prefer"
> the looks you can get with that shity code.
>
>
>> How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their
>> mess "behind the scenes"? and can we blame frontpage +
>> dreamweaver for this mess?

>
> Tell him about all the nerds and geeks that use something other than
> FF or IE that his pages may not look exactly the same way in... I am
> sure you will knock their sox off when you show them how great it
> "looks" to a blind person...
>
> Ok, I may be joking a litle, but that is argument you will have to
> win ESPECIALLY if they perceive their current website as being
> sucessfull.


You will win the argument, but not the commercial argument, because for
small and medium-sized business with a couple of hundred clients each year,
the blind and the ultrageeks are a very smalll percentage of their customers
(if any).


 
Reply With Quote
 
windandwaves
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2005
Mark Parnell wrote:
> In our last episode, windandwaves <(E-Mail Removed)>
> pronounced to alt.html:
>
>> How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their mess
>> "behind the scenes"?

>
> Bandwidth - clean pages are smaller, therefore much less bandwidth
> used. This can make a big difference, especially for big sites.
>
> WRT CSS vs presentational HTML, code maintenance is much quicker and
> easier - changes are made in one place, not throughout every file in
> the site.
>
> Not sure about NZ, but here in Australia, and in many other countries,
> accessible sites are required by law. It's much easier to make a site
> accessible if it's coded properly.


I have heard this argument before, but I do not think it is the case for
business. Government sites sure, but as a business you can put whatever you
want on your site and that, i think, is fair enough. I would not want
anyone telling me how to structure my pages - that stops progress.

>> and can we blame frontpage + dreamweaver for this mess?

>
> Frontpage to an extent, Dreamweaver (recent versions at least) less
> so. Ultimately it's clueless web authors that are truly to blame - if
> they didn't accept rubbish code, the editors would have to play nice.


Yep, true. Ultimately, it always comes back to choice.


 
Reply With Quote
 
Mark Parnell
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2005
In our last episode, windandwaves <(E-Mail Removed)> pronounced
to alt.html:

[accessibility]
> I have heard this argument before, but I do not think it is the case for
> business. Government sites sure, but as a business you can put whatever you
> want on your site and that, i think, is fair enough. I would not want
> anyone telling me how to structure my pages - that stops progress.


"The World Wide Web Consortium has developed web access guidelines, and
non-compliance with them by the operators of Australian websites is in
breach of the Act,"
http://www.hreoc.gov.au/media_releases/2002/72_02.html

No mention of it only applying to government.

--
Mark Parnell
http://clarkecomputers.com.au
alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/
 
Reply With Quote
 
Jonathan N. Little
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2005
windandwaves wrote:
> Hi Folk
>
> I was just wondering if any of you are ****ed off with the enormous amount
> of garbage out there on the net:
>
> <body leftmargin="0" right.....>
> </font><font blah blah></p><p></font><p></p> etc.....
>
> while all that could have been
> <p id="x">...</p>
>
> I am not actually angry about people making a mess, but what annoys me is
> that their page can "look" just as tidy as html strict with superbly
> formatted stylesheets, etc...
>
> How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their mess "behind
> the scenes"? and can we blame frontpage + dreamweaver for this mess?
>
> Keen to hear your comments.



When they get the quote by someone hired to edit the mess when they want
to make changes!

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
 
Reply With Quote
 
dorayme
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2005
> From: "windandwaves" <(E-Mail Removed)>

> How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their mess "behind
> the scenes"? and can we blame frontpage + dreamweaver for this mess?
>


If they are your clients, and certainly if your position is not
new or precarious, it depends to some extent on your standing,
your record with them, the respect they hold for you (see note
1). You can work in the changes gradually (see note 2) as the
updates are done. And sort of announce them as fait complete as
part of the work. You need to be reasonable in how you charge
for this and take on a little without charge, it never kills you
and boosts your confidence as you become prouder and more in
control. And if you go really good css and minimal html, no one
else but you, Mark Parnell, Els, Jonathon and Toby Inkster (see
note 3) would know anything about it anyway and are unlikely to
be found to take it over, so the firm would be stuck with you
(destroy all the old mish mash code)...

dorayme

Note 1: In my case, I have a simple technique, I employ gunmen
to sort of hang around when a client might visit or have them
hang about in the car or lobby when I am visiting. Men like the
three at the very start at the railway station in Once Upon a
Time in the West (Claudia Cardinale, Charles Bronson, Henry
Fonda and Luigi Donatello). Yeah, I know, they got shot up real
bad by their mouth organ playing quarry, (Charles Bronson in his
best role ever), when he arrived on the next train). Wanna know
why he was playing the mouth organ (hauntingly) at all by any
chance? It's worth knowing...

Note 2: I play some tracks from the parts of the cartoons where
Jerry is trying to sneak up on Tom when I do this...

Note 3: Look here, I know I have left some other good folk out
but the point is still good. You might have to watch out for
Korpela though... unlike me, he probably does not need gunmen to
accompany him...

 
Reply With Quote
 
Jake
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2005
In message <scB3f.261$(E-Mail Removed)>, windandwaves
<(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>Hi Folk
>
>I was just wondering if any of you are ****ed off with the enormous amount
>of garbage out there on the net:


Not really; life's too short ...........
>
><body leftmargin="0" right.....>
></font><font blah blah></p><p></font><p></p> etc.....
>
>while all that could have been
><p id="x">...</p>


Or even better:
<p class="x"> ... </p>
>
>I am not actually angry about people making a mess, but what annoys me is
>that their page can "look" just as tidy as html strict with superbly
>formatted stylesheets, etc...
>
>How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their mess "behind
>the scenes"?


Does the site 'work' at the moment? Will it cost money to change it?

If the answer is 'yes' to both of these questions, then it's going to be
hard/impossible to make a case.

Try when the site is being redesigned/rebuilt.

> and can we blame frontpage + dreamweaver for this mess?
>
>Keen to hear your comments.
>
>- Nicolaas
>
>


--
Jake ((E-Mail Removed) -- just a 'spam trap' mail address)
 
Reply With Quote
 
windandwaves
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2005
windandwaves wrote:
Thank you all for your great answers. I am sure that other people have
encountered it before. I am just a purist and even though my life is a
mess, I dont want the www to turn into a chaos. Just imagine, for example,
how much faster the web would be if we did not have all the dreamweaver
tables

Thanks again

- Nicolaas


 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Re: I am getting ****ed off Sweetpea NZ Computing 2 08-20-2010 08:11 PM
Downloading movies -- Should I be grateful or ****ed off? Nunsploitation Webmaster DVD Video 54 02-19-2004 02:20 AM
828 owners will be ****ed at the new pro1 Hugo Drax Digital Photography 38 02-09-2004 05:53 AM
****ed off! Exille Computer Information 8 01-12-2004 02:10 PM
Stoopid is ****ed that he can't rip his bank off!!!! Just Taylor Computer Support 34 08-02-2003 01:11 AM



Advertisments