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Disgusting

 
 
Hywel Jenkins
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      07-26-2005
In article <Xns969F8A2429445stanmccann@216.234.192.142>,
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) says...
> At New Mexico State University at Alamogordo, we are just beginning the
> process of a total redesign of our website.


<snipped rant about other people's coding standards />

Should you care? Save yourself the stress and don't.

--
Forum4Designers.com - usenet for wankers
 
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Stan McCann
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      07-26-2005
At New Mexico State University at Alamogordo, we are just beginning the
process of a total redesign of our website. As the webmaster and
teacher of some of the web design courses at a school that offers a
degree in web mastery, I feel that it is important that our campus
website reflect the web development approach that we teach.

Personnally, I teach strict HTML 4.01 and feel strongly that no new
pages should be created using transitional as the time of transition is
long past. I have been reviewing college sites all over the country,
especially colleges like NMSUA that offer degrees in web development
hoping to find sites that would support my arguments in keeping with
the coding styles so often seen discussed on this group.

So what do I find? Transitional or Loose DTDs if any and table layout
everywhere! The coding used by so many of these colleges that say they
teach web development is truly disgusting IMO. Front Page and Word
documents saved as HTML, pop ups, music, and so many other things that
I have seen discussion after discussion opposing the use of seems to be
the norm. No wonder it is so difficult to find a site that validates,
doesn't use table layout, etc.

So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating content
and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority? Are we
beating our heads against a wall? Is there any use in continuing to
write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing web
sites using 10 year old methods?

I could go on as this has turned into a rant. I just am starting to
wonder: what's the point? OK, end rant.

--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
http://alamo.nmsu.edu/ There are 10 kinds of people.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Leonard Blaisdell
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      07-26-2005
In article <Xns969F8A2429445stanmccann@216.234.192.142>,
Stan McCann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> As the webmaster and
> teacher of some of the web design courses at a school that offers a
> degree in web mastery, I feel that it is important that our campus
> website reflect the web development approach that we teach.


It seems to me that web mastery would maybe be worth an AS but surely
not a BS. I'm sure there's more to the degree than that. Especially at
Alamogordo

> So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating content
> and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority?


You betcha. A vast minority. But you knew that.

> Are we
> beating our heads against a wall?


I'm not. I take satisfaction from creating conforming sites.

> Is there any use in continuing to
> write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing web
> sites using 10 year old methods?


I certainly won't abandon what I know to conform to the norm.

leo

--
<http://web0.greatbasin.net/~leo/
 
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Andy Dingley
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      07-26-2005
On 26 Jul 2005 13:34:37 -0700, Stan McCann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating content
>and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority?


Yes.

>Is there any use in continuing to
>write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing web
>sites using 10 year old methods?


Well it's no _worse_ than using 1x1.gif

Just don't expect clients, or even "technical managers" to appreciate
the distinction. You certainly won't get paid any more than a clueless
muppet with a copy of Frontpage.

 
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Stan McCann
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      07-27-2005
Leonard Blaisdell <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed):

> It seems to me that web mastery would maybe be worth an AS but
> surely not a BS. I'm sure there's more to the degree than that.
> Especially at Alamogordo


NMSUA is a branch of NMSU and a community college. The web mastery
degree is an AS as we cannot offer a four year degree.

>> So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating
>> content and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority?

>
> You betcha. A vast minority. But you knew that.


Yeah, more venting than anything else.

>> Are we
>> beating our heads against a wall?

>
> I'm not. I take satisfaction from creating conforming sites.
>
>> Is there any use in continuing to
>> write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing
>> web sites using 10 year old methods?

>
> I certainly won't abandon what I know to conform to the norm.


I won't either. I just get frustrated that what I know to be correct
is so difficult to find out there. There are literally millions of
pages of horrid markup and practically none that can pass validation to
strict. With all of these schools putting out such garbage, it makes
it difficult to justify time and effort to my superiors in my job as
webmaster and it makes it difficult to justify to my students in my
classes. After all, what they see looks good even though it is nothing
more than tag soup.

--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
http://alamo.nmsu.edu/ There are 10 kinds of people.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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jlbdoc95
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      07-27-2005
Goes to show why people with those degrees are still not taken all that
seriously, when I hire someone who claims to have a web development degree,
I always take that with a grain of salt, more often than none you find that
the teachings are just that, FrontPage background with no regard for
Standards.

Kudos Stan for putting your students on the right path!!

Jean

"Stan McCann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:Xns969F8A2429445stanmccann@216.234.192.142...
> At New Mexico State University at Alamogordo, we are just beginning the
> process of a total redesign of our website. As the webmaster and
> teacher of some of the web design courses at a school that offers a
> degree in web mastery, I feel that it is important that our campus
> website reflect the web development approach that we teach.
>
> Personnally, I teach strict HTML 4.01 and feel strongly that no new
> pages should be created using transitional as the time of transition is
> long past. I have been reviewing college sites all over the country,
> especially colleges like NMSUA that offer degrees in web development
> hoping to find sites that would support my arguments in keeping with
> the coding styles so often seen discussed on this group.
>
> So what do I find? Transitional or Loose DTDs if any and table layout
> everywhere! The coding used by so many of these colleges that say they
> teach web development is truly disgusting IMO. Front Page and Word
> documents saved as HTML, pop ups, music, and so many other things that
> I have seen discussion after discussion opposing the use of seems to be
> the norm. No wonder it is so difficult to find a site that validates,
> doesn't use table layout, etc.
>
> So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating content
> and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority? Are we
> beating our heads against a wall? Is there any use in continuing to
> write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing web
> sites using 10 year old methods?
>
> I could go on as this has turned into a rant. I just am starting to
> wonder: what's the point? OK, end rant.
>
> --
> Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
> Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
> http://alamo.nmsu.edu/ There are 10 kinds of people.
> Those that understand binary and those that don't.



 
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cosmic foo
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      07-27-2005

"jlbdoc95" <albina@(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Goes to show why people with those degrees are still not taken all that
> seriously, when I hire someone who claims to have a web development

degree,
> I always take that with a grain of salt, more often than none you find

that
> the teachings are just that, FrontPage background with no regard for
> Standards.
>

frontpage rules!


 
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Neredbojias
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      07-27-2005
With neither quill nor qualm, Stan McCann quothed:

> At New Mexico State University at Alamogordo, we are just beginning the
> process of a total redesign of our website.


New Mexico has computers? Wow.

> So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating content
> and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority? Are we
> beating our heads against a wall? Is there any use in continuing to
> write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing web
> sites using 10 year old methods?


No, I agree with everything you say except the bias against tables.
There are just some things divs and css can't do; it may in part be due
to lackluster implementation, but css isn't perfect, either. I have a
few transitional pages on my site simply because it is much easier (and
more reliable) to vertically-center small content.

--
Neredbojias
Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
 
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Philip Ronan
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      07-27-2005
"cosmic foo" wrote:

> frontpage rules!


<P CLASS="MsoNormal" ALIGN="left" STYLE="margin-top: 5; margin-bottom:
-7"><B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000"><I><SPAN STYLE="mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt"><FONT FACE="Verdana">No it doesn't.</FONT></SPAN></I></B></P>

--
phil [dot] ronan @ virgin [dot] net
http://vzone.virgin.net/phil.ronan/


 
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JDS
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      07-27-2005
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:34:37 -0700, Stan McCann wrote:

> So, those of us that believe in writing valid code, seperating content
> and layout, using a fluid layout, etc. are in the minority? Are we
> beating our heads against a wall? Is there any use in continuing to
> write valid code when colleges are churning out people developing web
> sites using 10 year old methods?


Probably not in the minority -- I think the term is irrelevant in this
case. My finding is that web design tasks are so often given to people
with no skills other than FrontPage that the person creating the page was
not even aware that the concepts you espouse even exist!

One cannot know that one is breaking a "rule"[1] if one does not even know
that there is a rule at all.

I don't think you are beating your head against the wall on this. I just
think that people who don't know what the **** they are talking about too
often implement policies or create things that do not follow rules or
codes that make sense to people who do know what the **** they are talking
about.

So keep at it, someone is bound to listen eventually. I mean, why pay
someone to do a task, be an "expert" at something, if you aren't going to
listen to their "expert" recommendations.

Ugh. Maybe you are beating your head against the wall. Keep at it
anyways, though.

later...




[1] "rule" in quotes, because even the W3C "rules" are just
"recommendations".
--
JDS | (E-Mail Removed)lid
| http://www.newtnotes.com
DJMBS | http://newtnotes.com/doctor-jeff-master-brainsurgeon/

 
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